Podcast: The Unified Commercial Engine: The Gold Standard of Sales & Marketing Alignment

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How to Implement the Unified Commercial Engine - The Gold Standard of Sales & Marketing Alignment

Shahin Hoda chats with Jenna Pipchuk, CSO at 3P Learning, about the ultimate revolution of sales and marketing alignment - the Unified Commercial Engine (UCE).

The discussion focuses on the key components of the Unified Commercial Engine, including its definition, the budgeting process, positive outcomes, and the common mistakes to avoid.

Find out how and why UCE is a game-changing approach to sales and marketing alignment in this episode.

This episode’s guest: 

Conversation segments on this episode:

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• About 3P Learning
• About xGrowth
• About Brené Brown
• Revenue Operations
• Brent's Breakdown

About the Growth Colony Podcast

On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.

Growth Colony is produced by Alexander Hipwell, Allysa Maywald and Shahin Hoda from xGrowth

It was edited by Dave Somido with additional editing by Allysa Maywald and music arrangement by Alexander and Allysa.

Special thanks to Teena Wabe, we couldn’t make the show without you. 

Growth Colony is hosted by Shahin Hoda, Director of Growth at xGrowth. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe, and give us a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch!

We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

Episode Full Transcript

[01:23] Shahin Hoda  This is not just any conversation about alignment. Jenna has taken alignment to the next level through an approach called Unified Commercial Engine. It's fascinating, and if you are in the B2B space, you need to hear this. So make sure you put down what you're doing and let's dive in. Jenna, thanks for joining us. 

[01:44] Jenna Pipchuk  Thanks so much. I'm so excited to be here. I love talking about sales and marketing and where we're going next. 

[01:49] Shahin Hoda  I mean, we've had a couple of conversations beforehand and I've been looking forward to this chat because I feel like sales and marketing alignment is this very ambiguous term that people use. Then you ask them, hey, what do you do for sales and marketing alignment? And they're like, oh, you know, we like, do presentations to sales, and we make sure that we take them along on the journey. You're like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? And I love your structured approach to this alignment and kind of getting rid of the fluff, right? And you talk about Unified Commercial Engine. Can you unpack that a little bit? Can you expand on what that is? 

[02:35] Jenna Pipchuk  Sure, sure. The Unified Commercial Engine is really looking at sales in a broader span. In other words, we don't really differentiate between what marketing and what sales traditionally do, and customer success, and kind of after the purchase. So through the whole customer journey, if you take every point in that customer journey with whatever journey you use, and consider that to be the commercial process. And align your entire team to say, no, no, we are one team through the commercial process. How do we serve the customer? That really is in essence what the unified commercial engine is. It's taking the entire customer journey saying, we are one team. How do we serve that journey? And that’s a radical approach to say traditional sales and marketing kind of, departmental thinking. 

[03:23] Shahin Hoda  I mean, the key term that you use over there is one team. Can you unpack that? What does that mean?

[03:29] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, yeah. It means a lot. So I'm gonna talk about what we did at SMART and then I'll try and talk about what other organisations can do. ‘Çause not everybody is going to kind of, you know, pick up the jar and shake it all up and redo it. So at SMART, we completely redefined our teams. We took everybody that was in sales and marketing, customer success and customer support. And we completely realigned how we work. So one team, we broke it into a customer journey, where the customers learn. They buy, they adapt, and then they get support. And then, you know, that's an infinity loop that just continues. 

[04:03] Jenna Pipchuk  And so we just said, well, whose job is it to help the customer learn? And that came from all of our traditional departments. Whose job is it to help the customers purchase? You know, whose job is it that's, and so we, we realigned the kind of functions that the customers need across the way. But the best thing about our design that I think we little kind of lucked into a little bit is, the concept of team. Then what we did is we took those customer journeys and we segmented them. Most of our segments were geographic. Some are segmented by vertical, and some might be segmented just by a specific type of customer. 

[04:38] Jenna Pipchuk  So, how you segment into what we call the pods and lots of people have sales pods, it can be different, but the concept is whatever set of customers you're serving, that is the team..That is the full team, and you look at the entire commercial process for that team. So you have, maybe a demandgen manager, maybe your inside sales, maybe some field sales, maybe some channel people, customer success agent, customer support line. All of those are grouped together in one team, serving a specific set of customers. Very, very different concept from, oh, I'm on the demandgen team, and I work with DemandGen marketers. 

[05:16] Shahin Hoda  Interesting, interesting. So you would have a geography, let's say for example, California as a geography. 

[05:23] Jenna Pipchuk  Sure, yep. 

[05:24] Shahin Hoda  For a vertical like a pharmaceutical or banking. 

[05:27] Jenna Pipchuk  That's right. 

[05:28] Shahin Hoda  And that has its own sales, marketing. It's like a mini company 

[05:34] Jenna Pipchuk  That's right. 

[05:35] Shahin Hoda  For acquisition and retention of customer.

[05:38] Jenna Pipchuk  A hundred percent. 

[05:38] Shahin Hoda  Is that right?

[05:39] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, a hundred percent. We call them pods and we have a pod leader. And exactly what you said. We view the pod leader as the mini CEO. So again, go back to that broad commercial process, the entire customer journey, the team servicing that broad customer journey, that's your everyday team. Now we still have traditional hierarchal, all the demandgen managers report directly into a demandgen manager. But that is not, they don't consider that their team. That's not who they meet with every day. Tthe reason we have that kind of vertical, you know, matrix organisation, if you will, and that's just so they can get role specific information and that we can keep things pretty similar. ‘Cause as you get more and more pods, what happens is you can get 19 variations of almost the same, right? 

[06:24] Jenna Pipchuk  And so by keeping that kind of matrix organisation, the manager of the demandgen people, their job is to make sure the skills are there and to make sure they're sharing the different things that are happening in different pods. But they don't manage their team as if it's a team of demandgen people. They manage it as, oh, I have a whole bunch of people who work in a bunch of different teams, and my job is to help them with their specific part of role. And it was by design, but the hindsight is that it is actually the magic. 

[06:56] Jenna Pipchuk  The magic is once you have a single set of customers, that the broader commercial process is, working towards, what happens is the visibility and the purpose is unbelievable because now the demandgen person not just getting leads. They understand that I'm working with this person and this set of customers, and I can see how my leads follow through and I can share in the wins, and I can share in the losses, and I can get creative about how we work as a team to better serve those customers.And so their visibility and their purpose of their work was one of the, you know, the best things we kind of stumbled across. 

[07:34] Shahin Hoda  Right. So like a pod would, like people in a pod would look like something in the lines of, there will be an AE, there would be like a BDR or an SDR, but there will also be demandgen, field marketers.

[07:47] Jenna Pipchuk  Yep. 

[07:48] Shahin Hoda Is that, is that, is that correct? 

[07:50] Jenna Pipchuk  That's exactly correct. 

[07:51] Shahin Hoda Success will be part of that. 

[07:52] Jenna Pipchuk  That's exactly correct. And that there'll be a, sometimes, channel account manager, maybe some inside channel people, and the amount of those people can vary based of what that pod needs. So if it's a very large geographic pod, say maybe northeast, USA, maybe we have tons and tons of customers there. So I might have a pod of 20, whereas maybe I have a smaller section in, like you said, California, uh, maybe that's a pod of five. But the  identity, the scope of work, the different skill sets that are being brought to it, uh, those are the same. 

[08:26] Shahin Hoda  And how does the, like allocate resources because then you know, like in traditional organisation you have the sales budget, you got the marketing budget. Marketing has the demandgen budget. It has like, so how does that whole. budgeting process, work. 

[06:45] Jenna Pipchuk  Oh, I'm gonna blow your mind here. We have a singular budget. And even with two heads. So I worked with my cohort, the CMO and of course, on our opex lines have different numbers. But when we do budgeting, we actually do budgeting altogether. So all of the traditional marketing leaders, all of the traditional sales leaders, we go in and we've made kind of, we spilled our Excel spreadsheet into like a poker chip game board. And everywhere we spend money has a, you know, if you think of a craps table, a square on the craps table, and what we do is we just hand out the poker chips as they exist and we say, well, here's where I'm spending money, where are you spending money? Where do we need to spend money to get our goals for next year? 

[09:26] Jenna Pipchuk  Okay. Then we do scenario planning. If we had 5 million more, where would we put it? Okay. If we had 2 million less, where would we put it? Where would we take it from? And so we run those scenarios as a full UCE group. And so the clarity that that provides and also the ability for us to move forward is quite good. But I will tell you, when we first did it, there was a ton of fear. There was a ton of fear of, you know, traditional marketing people saying, well, the sales people are just gonna put it on events. You know, those guys, they just wanna run events. And the events people was like, well those marketing people, they're just gonna wanna put it in digital. I'm really nervous. I don't want them to see that sort of stuff. 

[10:04] Jenna Pipchuk  But we ran it and the clarity it provides on our financial budget, the ability to see things and also the relief. Because it, again, it gelled us. We started to see that when you look at the broader commercial process, you're all trying to do the same thing and it gets you out of the kind of departmental sales versus marketing as if you have a finite amount of resources to a, a team of how are we gonna get more customers and how do we leverage what we're doing to get those customers?

[10:34] Shahin Hoda  Does it happen? Well actually, let me ask this first. Would then each pod have their own budget? So once you have that unified budget across sales and marketing, would you then divide that budget across different pods and you say, hey, this pod would have this budget, and is that how it works? Or do you divide it differently? 

[10:54] Jenna Pipchuk  Uh, I think we divide it more traditionally, so there's budgets in different areas of what we're going to spend on things, and then they get an allocated portion, like an estimate of what out of X budget that pod would get. But, the leaders of each kind of segment would have the freedom to adjust. You know, maybe some of our, you know, maybe some of our bigger areas don't need quite their full allocation ‘çause they're more effective, more efficient, ‘çause they have more people. Whereas other areas that we're trying to grow might need more resources as a percentage. So there's that flexibility in there, but there's the transparency that keeps everybody accountable.

[11:29] Jenna Pipchuk  We also have something in marketing where we call the kind of glocalisation. So we have certain things that we're going to do as a company. Certain themes that we agree on. Certain messaging that we agree on as a company that's a little bit more global. And then we push that to the pods, to what we call localised. Glocalisation is the fun term that Jeff low-coined. And it's about, well, here's, here's the start of everything that you're looking for in messaging. But we know that you might use different words. You might have different heroes. You might have a different stress point that works in your region. And so you guys work as a team to take this content we created globally and then fine tune it for your marketing, your messages, your market, your customers.

[12:13] Shahin Hoda  How does it work in situations where, you know, you got a vertical pod? But you know, maybe the vertical pod is not too big and it just has maybe two events a year. 

[12:27] Jenna Pipchuk  Yep. 

[12:29] Shahin Hoda  So it doesn't make sense to allocate a full-time field marketer to that pod. Does it happen that there are certain people that would be across multiple different pods?

[12:38] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, there is. There are certain areas, especially when you're getting into the smaller or the specific, maybe we have a couple that are specific to large customers. You know that they only have two or three big national customers that they work with. And so in those instances, we might have a 0.2 or a 0.3 or a 0.5 of a person assigned to that pod. And that really means that that person just ends up working in two or three pods. So then they're a member of three teams instead of one team. And then they split their kind of time and energy between those three. And so, so that works. We don't have too many of those. But in cases where, like you say, you're trying to do something in a small, kind of start-upy way, it's easy to, split out the resources as needed.

[13:22] Shahin Hoda  Got it, got it. Jenna, how did you get to this point? Like, what was the problem that you were trying to solve where it kind of led you to this point and this type of structure. 

[13:35] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, there were two kind of main drivers that started us on our journey. The first was we as a corporation had a challenge of siloed nature. And what we mean by that is we had departments that we just couldn't seem to get them to see the bigger picture. It was a lot of, you know, if something went wrong. And you would go and talk to the teams, it would be like, well, I did my part. Amazing. I mean, too bad about those guys. Or, you know, I don't know, like we did all of this and this and this and this. I mean, I don't know why those guys couldn't close it. You know, it was a lot of kind of finger pointing, a lot of kind of, and I think a lot of people out there listening have experienced this or maybe still experience this in their organisations.

[14:16] Jenna Pipchuk  It's the siloed nature of work, and what I've learned is that's about the definition of team. And so if your team is two defined in a smaller scope, you're not spreading that scope out and then you're kind of saying, well, you know, you're not really helping those guys over there. We had tried everything. We had tried the whole, you know, pass the baton, you know, the whole relay race. It's about you do your part, then you pass the baton and they do their part and they pass the baton. We actually had physically shipped around an, an, a stuffed animal and a baton to people to help get this concept, and it, it just wasn't making a difference.

[14:53] Jenna Pipchuk  So that was kind of our internal motivation. But, the biggest motivation was, we saw that the buyers were changing. We saw that consumers were getting their information elsewhere. The traditional kind of sales mode of, hey, we bring you the information and help you make the decision. That was going away. And we just felt like as a company we wanted to be where the market was going and how were we going to address the more digital buyer? How were we going to really get ourselves set up, um, to be able to move with where we felt things were going because everybody was talking about putting sales and marketing together.

[15:29] Jenna Pipchuk  So we started looking around on who could give us an example. And we were sad to find out, you know, two and a half years ago there was virtually no one. There was nobody that had an example of completely redefining sales and marketing. Nowadays, two and a half years later, we're starting to see books that are written that are about what we do, and we're starting to see more and more organisations go with kind of chief revenue officers and rev operations are coming up. So we're starting to see it move that way. But back then, we didn't know. So we looked around, we didn't see anything. We had talked to a lot of experts, you know, like the Gartner's and, and others. And then we found this, um, company in the UK that kind of helped us. And they actually brought the term unified commercial engine.

[16:12] Jenna Pipchuk  They had a view of what a commercial engine was, but it was like for an entire organisation. And we said, no, no, we just wanna focus on sales and marketing. And once we kind of aligned around the customer journey, really all that we did that was different is we did it. We took 263 jobs. We completely realigned them into our categories, which just happened to be around the customer journey we selected. So we have a learn team, a buy team, an adopt team, and a support team. That's actually how they exist in our organ, how we talk about them. 

[16:44] Shahin Hoda  And then,and those are the teams that then have contribution into the pods, right? 

[16:50] Jenna Pipchuk  That's right. 

[16:51] Shahin Hoda And they would have multiple, one or multiple contributors inside of the pod.

[16:55] Jenna Pipchuk  That's right. And so traditional matrix organisation, those teams kind of go down vertically and then horizontally across you would have each of the pods. And then the really only secret sauce, again, that I think we didn't plan, we didn't understand how significant it was, is that the team itself who they identify with is that horizontal cross, not who they directly reported to, and, and that, that has really become the very secret sauce for us.

[17:19] Shahin Hoda Let's talk about the outcome. I mean, we've talked about the structure of it and what has happened. But what has been the outcome? I mean, it sounds like you started on a journey about two and a half years ago 

[17:29] Jenna Pipchuk  Yep. 

[17:29] Shahin Hoda  And started doing this, this implementation, really figuring out what's going to happen? But how did the, what did the outcome look like? How did you, how were you measuring the outcome? Love to hear a little bit from, from that side as well. 

[17:40] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, I think it, we defined, uh, the measurements quite early on, a little bit of, uh, a metrics per each of our areas. So for each of the, kind of learn, adopt by, what are the key metrics that we're gonna measure. And so getting everybody aligned onto that before we even changed the teams was really good. We put it into our business process. So our monthly business reviews are actually each of the pods reporting on those key metrics. So they can embellish and add, you know, there's other, other things we measure, but they have to report on the key metrics. They have to report on how they're doing on each of them, and it did change a little bit. I remember in the beginning we had kind of. You know, early days, the kind of traditional marketers saying, oh, you're giving us targets like sales. That's not what we do. We're creative. And we said, no, that's, we have to have metrics across the board.

[18:29] Jenna Pipchuk  But, you know, the people who really say that marketing doesn't have metrics, don't know marketing. Marketing has a ton of metrics that they measure and it's just about maybe putting some goals and targets around those metrics to show your success. And so then we moved some of those over and, and we did have some people that were commission based that we took away the commission and moved to a kind of an annual bonus plan. We did have some people who were on an annual bonus plan that we moved to commission based. So depending on the role they moved into, we adjusted the comp comparatively. And so that's a question I get asked a lot by people looking to do this. 

[19:04] Jenna Pipchuk  And so, yes, we changed the comp, we changed the job up roles, we changed who they report to, and we changed, uh, the skill sets that we needed.And so literally we took, we did a, what we called a circles and squares organisation. We, circles and squares exercise. We built the org with squares. And then we took all of the people in our circles. We looked at their skillset, their aptitude, their interest, and started to place the circles into the squares. And we were left with a few squares that we had to bring new skills into the company and a few circles that were really great people but weren't going to help us move to the forward momentum of the company. 

[19:40] Jenna Pipchuk  And we still kind of do that exercise a little bit, but it's much more broad now because we look broader at the whole commercial process. Our career pathing is broader. We now have people that go from, you know, inside channel into you know, what was traditional marketing roles. They might go into social media or PR or certain things. And we might have people who were traditional marketers actually say, wow, this really looks interesting. I'd love to learn more about becoming a BDR. So very interesting career paths came out of it. 

[20:11] Shahin Hoda  I love it. I love it. And obviously going and becoming a pod leader and that's the vertical move. So if somebody's listening to this and they're like, okay, this is, this is interesting. I would, I think we should implement something like this in our organisation. What is your advice to them? What do you think they need to kind of keep in mind? 

[20:33] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah. So we say you don't have to do the whole shake up like we did to get started. We think there's kind of two fundamental things that you need to do, which is align on a customer journey, map whatever one your organisation feels, fits you best, and then broaden everybody's understanding of that commercial process. If you do nothing else, but explain to everybody what your customer journey looks like, how they're moving through that, and how the handoffs your company needs to have to help the customer do that. That's kind of a key process. And then the other one is just look at your teams and ask some simple questions like, who helps the customer? Learn about X. 

[21:13] Jenna Pipchuk  Who talks to the customer? Who's sending out information though to the customer? And what you'll find is if you ask that across your entire organisation, both sales and marketing, you will find that many people do similar things and they're not really coordinating with each other. What we found before is we had multiple groups talking to our customers. They talked to them in different voices and they didn't coordinate when they talked to 'em. So our customers would maybe get nothing from us for a long period of time, and then they might be bombarded with two or three messages that don't even feel like they're from the same company. 

[21:43] Jenna Pipchuk  And so by getting to that unified status, we started to talk in the same voice. We started to understand when we're talking to them, we started to get better data around how we were interacting with our customers. And so you don't have to do a full reorg to be able to just do those pieces. 

[22:01] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. Got it. What are some of the mistakes that you made that you and the team made on this journey that if you go back, you're like, yeah, we shouldn't be doing that. We shouldn't be doing that. What are some of the things that come to mind? 

[22:13] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah, of course. We learned a ton and one of the biggest ones we talk about is we didn't do enough training on indirect leadership. So our pod leaders by nature, we say the pod leader can come from any segment of the org. So that same group we're talking about, say it's the Northwest USA. That could be a person from DemandGen. It could be a person from channel. It could be a person from end user sales. Whoever has the most seniority and experience to lead. That's who we make our kind of mini CEO of the pod. We didn't invest enough in helping them with the indirect leadership that they needed because most of the people that they manage on a day-to-day basis don't directly report to them.

[22:52] Jenna Pipchuk  And we did find that there's a dearth of, like there's not enough information on how to train indirect leadership and how to do that on a daily basis. So I think that's something that the world is trying to catch up on. But definitely that was one of our biggest things. And then don't underestimate the amount of change management. I think we kind of came into it with eyes wide open on what we were doing, but it does take time and commitment. So, you know, we joke that for the first three months we literally just said, yep, we're doing this. Yep. We're really doing this. Yeah, we're really going ahead with this, you know? 

[23:37] Jenna Pipchuk  And, uh, for the first kind of, you know, two months we had, you know, regular, UCE leader meetings that were a bit cricket like, and Jeff and I, the CMO and I, we would literally sit there quiet saying, I'm sure we got problems, guys. Let's start talking. And it, took time. So it took probably a full quarter until the change started to really start to get that momentum. And so you need that commitment, from the top to really help guide the team through and navigate those changes.

[23:58] Shahin Hoda  Now Jenna, I have some rapid fire questions that I wanna ask you.But before we go into the rapid fire question, is there anything else around the unified commercial engine that you think we sh we maybe I didn't ask or we, it's important for us to touch on? [24:13] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah,  well, I mean, I didn't answer your question very well on the proof points. So here's some proof points on why we know this works is, our revenue went up, uh, in, you know, 30% year on year. So that's great, but you know, there's lots of things that can contribute to that. One of the things we're most proud of is our lead acceptance rate doubled. Doubled. We went from low forties to high nineties in acceptance rate.. And then on top of that, we doubled the number of leads that we were able to get. So can you imagine that's, that's a, that's a four x component, right? We, not only did we double our leads, but the acceptance rate is so much higher and we don't hear anymore you know, that kind of all of those leads are no good or hey, that because the team works on them together, that they're just better quality, they're faster, you know, followed up on.

[25:00] Jenna Pipchuk  And then, like I said, the kind of purpose driven understanding of the different roles led us to not really change our retention. Like our retention rate didn't change in the great resignation. Not a single percent. So we were able to retain top talent. We were able to grow and we actually really exceeded kind of our engagement scores after Covid when most companies kind of fell off. So we went from kind of best in tech to top 10% on any segment in the year, kind of from Mercer reporting. So those are things that kind of, we use as, you know, really good proof points that say that this kind of structure can really work for your organisation.

[25:37] Shahin Hoda  I mean, that is amazing proof that's just, you blew that out of the park. So, I love you sharing that. And it's, it's really a very interesting model you've implemented.

[26:30] Shahin Hoda  Okay, let's do some rapid fire questions. 

[26:31] Jenna Pipchuk  All right. 

[26:32] Shahin Hoda  First question that I have is, what is one resource? It could be a book, a blog, a podcast, whatever it is that has had a profound impact on whether professionally or personally.

[26:44] Jenna Pipchuk  Yeah. Okay. So personally I'd say the, you know, the whole Brene Brown books helped me in my leadership. But the one that I'm most excited about right now is by a gentleman named Steven Diorio. I think that's how you say his last name. The book is called Revenue Operations. And it's a fairly new book. And I would say when I read it for the first time, I was like, oh my goodness, this is the UCE. And then he expanded on it. So it was a mind opening kind of book I highly recommend.

[27:13] Shahin Hoda  Got it noted. I just just took that down as a note. We'll definitely be checking that out. For question number two is if you could give one advice to B2B sales and marketers, what would that be?

[26:44] Jenna Pipchuk  It would definitely, don't forget the human element. So in, in everything you kind of, in all the processes you design and, and how your organisation works, I think too many people, you know, eliminate how people react to change, how people process change, how people work together. And if you can keep the human element in mind, that is in my opinion, the only way you can make processes successful.

[27:54] Shahin Hoda  I love it. Question number three. Who are some of the influencers that you follow Jenna? 

[28:01] Jenna Pipchuk  Definitely, Brent Adamson. If you know him from, he's from Gartner. He did Challenger Sales. I think he does a fun little podcast now called Brent's Breakdowns. So, yeah, I think he's one of those ones I follow and always get good value from.

[28:16] Shahin Hoda  All right. I didn't know he was doing a podcast. I'm definitely gonna check that. Last question, Jenna, last question is, what is something that excites you about B2B today? 

[28:25] Jenna Pipchuk  Oh, it's about the potential really, like to me, sales is undergoing a kind of a change, you know, a fundamental change in how it's done. And nobody's really cracked the code on it. So the potential of those that can utilise data and AI really help with digital buying in a way that we haven't been able to do, and then connect that to B2B, especially through channels. That's just full of potential we haven't yet realised.

[28:53] Shahin Hoda  That definitely sounds very exciting. Jenna, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and sharing all the insights related to the Unified Commercial Engine system that you've implemented. I've learned a ton. I'm sure anyone who's listening to this podcast is gonna be in the same position. Thank you so much. 

[29:15] Jenna Pipchuk  Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast.