Podcast: How to Navigate the World of Intent Data

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Episode’s topic: How can B2B leaders evaluate Intent Data Providers?

In this episode, host Shahin Hoda chats with John Steinert of TechTarget about what B2B leaders should look for when evaluating intent data providers.

John unpacks the four categories of intent data providers in the market along with their pros and cons. He also discusses multiple factors such as sales teams' behaviour and the long-term strategic impact that marketers need to be mindful of during this evaluation process.

This episode’s guest:

Conversation segments on this episode:

• [01:39] Addressing marketeers' attraction to buzzwords 
• [04:04] Marketers need to be mindful of their attraction to buzzwords when making a buying decision
• [08:31] All behaviour data today is being sold as intent 
• [10:46] Problem with Intent data coming from marketing automation tools 
• [11:59] Bid stream harvesting & its shortcomings
• [14:57] Challenges with intent data created by data aggregators
• [16:00] How companies like TechTarget create intent data that can help buyers make purchase decisions
• [21:37] Scenarios to consider while evaluating intent suppliers  
• [25:37] Make sure intent suppliers have data that can help both sales and marketing teams  
• [27:52] Training salespeople on the ways to use behaviour data is critical 
• [29:19] Salespeople need to be convinced for not disqualifying an entire account based on one interaction
• [29:53] Marketers need to look at their long-term strategy while evaluating intent suppliers
• [31:20] John's advice for B2B marketers
• [33:11] Exciting thing about B2B today

Resources mentioned on this episode:

• About TechTarget
• About xGrowth
• Intent-Based Marketing and Integrating Around Better Data
• Tomasz Tunguz - Influencer followed by John
• 99percentinvisible – Podcast followed by John
• xGrowth's Account-Based Marketing guide

About the Growth Colony Podcast:

On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.

Hosted & Produced by Shahin Hoda & Alexander Hipwell, from xGrowth

Get in touch!

We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

Episode Full Transcript:

[00:18] Shahin Hoda  I'm Shahin Hoda with xGrowth. And today, I'm talking to John Steinert, Chief Marketing Officer at TechTarget about what should B2B leaders look for when evaluating intent data providers. On that note, let's dive in. John, thanks for joining us. 

[00:33] John Steinert  Great to be here. Sorry about the time difference. And congratulations on coming out of lockdown. 

[00:41] Shahin Hoda  Thank you so much. Thank you. It's quite a relief. I feel like you know, a lot of, you're joining us from Boston, Massachusetts. And you know, here in Melbourne, I feel like we've kind of forgot how to socialise. Now the doors are open, and everyone's peeking out their house, and they're like, really, we could go out? Is that, are you sure? So it's, thank you very much for that. 

[01:07] Shahin Hoda  But I want to talk about today, I want to talk about the content topic of intent. This is, you know, TechTarget is pretty much the leader in this space of intent and intent data for marketing and sales people. I'd love to, you know, I'd love to first explore what is the buzz around intent data right now? What is this all about? I mean, you know, we previously spoke and you mentioned that, you know, intent data has been something that's been around for a long time. What does the market mean when they're talking about intent data today? 

[01:39] John Steinert  Let's address the question of buzz and the attraction of buzz to marketers or marketeers' attraction to buzz, you know. First, I don't know about you, but I got into marketing because I liked things like buzz. I liked what was cool, and what was hot. You know, in the world of fashion and cars and all that consumer stuff. I loved perfume advertising. I thought that that was really fun. There are some guys who came and talked to me in university, about jobs and marketing. And they said, there's this great quote from somebody that said, "Don't let your sons grow up to be advertising men." And now with you know, Madmen you can see why. But I thought it'd be super fun. Because it was like a buzzy industry. 

[02:28] John Steinert  So I think in the culture of marketing, it is partially about creating excitement. And so buzz is a natural thing. And, and out of that, there's also sort of a technical attraction, especially in B2B. And so you take buzzwords, and then you abbreviate them into, you know, a few initials. And there's all kinds of great buzzwords. So when I started, we didn't talk about demandgen. And so that was a buzzword. And you know, then there's the internet that was kind of a buzzword. And there's ABM, a huge, huge buzzword. There's CRM, there's all you know, all these acronyms. personalisation is a huge buzzword, because you know, it might be a dirty little secret. 

[03:15] John Steinert  But when we talk about personalisation in B2B, we don't necessarily mean talking to a person about their personal interests. Omnichannel is a buzzword. AI is a buzzword. So these are popular, these concepts get popularised and people glom on to them. And I think there's always some important value in the term. But the term itself takes on a life of its own. And intent has sort of taken on a life of its own. So there's value in the concept. But there are a lot of sort of landmines on the way to starting to work with intent, I think for folks. 

[04:00] John Steinert  So marketers are innovative. They like exciting new things. But they have to watch out that they have to try to understand the thing, before making a purchase decision on their own to buy something that may or may not work or may not deliver what they think is going to deliver. Otherwise, they get in a situation where you buy something, say it's called ABM. And what you really have is an advertising product that does something for you does account based advertising. But does it have any impact on the revenue yield from a particular set of accounts? Not very much. I mean advertising has important impacts but tying that to revenue is a kind of a tenuous piece of analysis. 

[04:44] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, it's far from it. And I totally agree with you. I think there's a lot of ABM that is equal an ABM tool right. And a lot of people market it that way because it sells better versus saying hey, these IP-targeted ads. It's not going to sell as well as saying this is an ABM platform. Now, you know, what do we mean by that? Let's explore what do we mean by intent? I mean, you know, intent has been around for a long time, when a lead comes on your website, and they fill a form, that's a sign of intent, right? When, and that's been around for ages. We've been, you know, we've been sending people to landing pages to download our ebook for years and years. What do people who mean today when they're talking about intent? 

[05:33] John Steinert  Okay, so there's people who use the term to mean exactly what you described, but let's kind of try to unpack it. There is a category of data that we can call behavioral data. It's data that says somebody did something, right. They exhibited a behavior. And a content download is a form of that. But when we started talking about intent, we called it purchase intent data. It was supposed to be behavioral data that indicated some real predictive value of whether a purchase was going to happen or not. I think that when we've truncated the term, we've now equated it with behavioral data, whether or not it's predictive of a purchase. 

[06:24] John Steinert  So that's kind of the initial problem. It is behavioral data in all its forms, some behavior has happened. But the varieties of behavioral data, the richness of that data, really affect how predictive it is, or how able it is to illustrate that an impending purchase is underway. And so when you take a lead, there's very little data in there. It's often one behavior, an open market purchase lead. There's one behavior, a content download happened. You don't know if that content download, how it was influenced, you don't know if subsequent downloads happened. It's certainly not an MQL, right? It is not that multiple actions happen. So it is one behavioral event, not a strong signal. 

[07:23] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, yeah, that's true. You know, and it's fascinating, because there are a lot of companies out there that are selling quote, unquote, intent data, right? And, you know, I didn't realise this for a long time that there is a level of complexity of exactly what we're talking about. What do you mean by intent? And, you know, intent on if you see intent from a customer on your own website, and they have made multiple decisions, it's very similar to lead scoring, right? 

[07:58] Shahin Hoda  The concept of lead scoring, and you're basically saying that this lead has intent. Now, in the market, there are third party providers who maybe do that for you. But even that there are differences between how they do it, and how they evaluate that and there are first party intent data and third party inten data. Can you maybe unpack that a little bit for us, of what does that, you know, what does the landscape look like? And what are people selling in the market as intent? 

[08:27] John Steinert  So the first thing is, I'd say that, you know, in terms of the buzzwords, anybody that had something that was capturing behavioral data, is now calling that intent data. So all your lead providers are going to tell you they have intent data, and they have behavioral data. It's hard to tell, you know, depending on what the ratio of false positives to actual leads that qualify, all the way to, you know, sales qualified leads will tell you, what percentage are actually indicative of a potential purchase. But there are really four categories. And you hit on the first one, when you said, well, there's first party behavioral signals. They're first party because they belong to the client organisation, right? Their signals, and you have them in multiple types. 

[09:20] John Steinert  You have things from your marketing automation system, you have them from your website, and in marketing automation, you know who the person is, right? You know, the account and the person on your website depending on how you deal with registration, you may know who the visitor is, or you may not, and you may be limited to IP address lookup, which isn't particularly accurate. It might resolve you know, 30-35% of the accounts. You may have to cookie them their accounts. So you may know the account for sure, but not necessarily and cookies may change or they're constantly evolving. And you may have interaction with them through your sales team that you may or may not know about. 

[10:05] John Steinert  And so there are a whole lot, there's a whole category of solutions that are helping you understand what your sales team is doing. Because it's not so easy when you're just looking in CRM, because a lot of that communication is through email. So you got your first party, and then third party lead providers are finding some way to get folks to do a download. They may own web properties so it's their first party data, and they're getting downloads on those. And they're providing you a person and a signal. And that's more like the direct first party thing. So often they have a person, but they have a weak signal. So that's category one, and I put both your first party and third party lead providers in there because there is a signal, but it might be weak. And in some cases, you can't resolve the person or you can't resolve the company or you can't resolve the buyer's journey. 

[11:01] John Steinert  Then there's a whole category that involves really fancy AI and machine-driven analysis of other folks data. So one example, there's two major examples. One of this is in the way the ad bidding systems work. You can bid for ads without ever buying ads, right? So you bid low, and your machine can do this for you. So you can do millions of bids. And that will enable you to see what the keywords were involved with the ad, what would serve the ad, and what was on the page that would be served. So you would know what the context of the ad is. And simply by doing bidding, you can grab this data and you can analyse it. And so you have some information about who's actually doing, what kinds of searches and what's on the pages that are served. 

[11:59] John Steinert  So this is called bid stream harvesting. And this is actually the most common type of intent that's being offered up by many providers. So if we set aside the fact that they're not actually paying for this data, there's a weakness in the system that causes this data to leak out for people who aren't buying ads can still see the information. If we set that aside and we say, well, there may be some legal problems with that going, you know, into the future. The issue still with this type of data is one, they don't know for sure that the keyword is really relevant to what their clients are actually caring about. 

[12:46] John Steinert  So say, let's say the keyword involves the word servers. And it could easily be about and they try to correct for this, but it could easily be about, you know, hiring people to serve at restaurants. Or if it's routers, it could be about routers for woodwork versus routers, for networking. If it's storage, it could be for, you know, offsite storage versus storage of data. So there's all kinds of problems there. But the biggest problem is that the keywords that you want to find are only as good as the keywords your client tells you to find. So rather than discovering demand about a topic, you're looking for the keywords that your client has asked you to look for. And that's impacted by the client's understanding of their market. And the client's understanding of their market is only as good as their ability to study the market. 

[13:46] John Steinert  So so when they go to an intent provider and say, look for these keywords, they're not looking necessarily broadly enough, they're not looking precisely enough. And what they get back is a reinforcement only of what they asked for. So it's not a particularly strong signal, it may be an illegal signal. And it's not a particularly deep or broad signal. And then of course, the most important thing is that it doesn't tell you who the people are. So it becomes a hard signal to action. 

[14:21] John Steinert  The third type which you might call now a classic type is by data providers who aggregate data from a network of publishers, where the publisher is the first party provider in their tracking activity on their websites. And then the data provider is sourcing that from the publisher, right? They're buying the field of data. And so, that's a very good idea because publishers have audiences who come to their websites. And so it's a great way to see information about what is occurring on all types of websites. The challenge is that of those websites, one tends not to be permission based. So you're never going to resolve the people. And the other is that when websites have particularly valuable data, they tend not to participate in publishing them. 

[15:16] John Steinert  And so what you're really looking at is a lot of websites that aren't the particularly popular ones in a given category, right? The more popular the website, the less likely the web property owner is going to sell the data. So you're getting a good aggregate view, it tends to be a very broad view. But it's not a very powerful signal. And you don't have the people. But as an overlay, that's a data form on other types of data. So you've got your first party data, you've got aggregate data on contacts, and now you're overlaying something or you're using it to power advertising is a solution that people have found, they like quite a bit. 

[16:00] John Steinert  And the fourth type is private properties on the web owned generally by publishers, this is what we have. And the publishers there have created something that they think is really valuable, it's serving a very particular need. So they're keeping it private, they're not sharing it. And they tend to have built infrastructures that are one permission based. So you have to share your data if you want to see that. You share your personal data, if you want to see that content. And that content tends to be built for things like helping you make purchase decisions. And so this tends to make it much richer, the data stream that comes from it tends to be much richer, because the whole business concept will give you this information that will help you make really important decisions in exchange for data about you. 

[16:57] John Steinert  And so it's kind of like, you can think of it like Amazon, they're not going to share data about their customers with anybody, but they're going to use it like mad, right? But that's because they want to take over the world, right. So a smaller organisation like TechTarget, we have to make money by sharing data. And we have to make our visitors willing to give us their information by telling them we're going to share their data and supplying them with the content they need that's super important so that they make the right purchase decisions in the technology industry. So our whole business model is built on, we're going to give you great content to help you make purchase decisions. But you have to allow us to share your data with the tech vendors who are trying to figure out what you need. 

[18:39] Shahin Hoda  I guess that you know, the next question that I want to ask is, you know, let's say I'm a CMO, and I'm looking at purchasing, you know, partnering with Nintendo platform, right? And we've touched on this a little bit, but I definitely want to make it clear, what are some of the questions that I should be asking, you know? What do I go in there and be like, you know, give me the answer to these questions? What do you think those important questions are that a CMO should ask or you know, a director of sales or head of sales? Or whoever it is? 

[19:11] John Steinert  Well, so there's two sides to that question. One is the questions you should ask yourself, that is what challenges inside your company or in your company's go-to market? Would you hope or do you think intent data might help you live? So make a list of those, you know. I have problems with this, this, this, this and this in marketing and similar ones in sales. And I'm looking for a data provider to help me. So let's take it out of the intense space. First, let's talk about data providers overall. 

[19:48] John Steinert  So everybody has problems finding people to contact. So that's you know, you need a, you might say I need a contact data supplier. But if you say, well, I've got a lot of people I could contact, I want to know the ones I should contact. That's when you want a behavioral overlay that says, this guy's not interested in anything right now. But that guy seems to be interested, right? So you take a contact data layer, you add a technographic layer, you have a firmographic layer. And now, what do you need in the behavioral data layer, that will help you accomplish sort of the optimal balance of what  your actions are going to be? And what the yield is going to be from it? So you write those things down? And then you're going to take those and say, to the provider, how can you help me with this? 

[20:46] Shahin Hoda  Right. Right. 

[20:48] John Steinert  So it is, okay. Will you help me find the accounts I want to advertise to? Well, anybody can do that. Right? If you say, well, you want to advertise to people, to fewer than everybody? That's the first assumption, right? And then, so yes, you know, your total addressable market is, you don't want to advertise to all of them, where if you have enough money, maybe you do want to advertise to them. Then well, you know, inside of that what your ideal customer profile is, maybe you want to advertise to all of those? Well, a lot of companies don't really even do any advertising. So, you know, if advertising is a big part, that's one thing. But if advertising is not a big part, that's something to think about. 

[21:37] John Steinert  So if the intent supplier's primary benefit is to somewhat reduce your total advertising scope, but you don't do a lot of advertising, you do want to take that off the table. And then you could go right down the road. Do you, are you interested in more leads? Or are you interested in lead conversion rates? For instance, two very different questions. So some companies have realised that more is not always better. And they started to focus more on conversions. So they've modified their KPIs. And they're saying, I'm much more interested in the percentage of leads that converts to marketing qualified leads. Well, in that case, you want a lot fewer false positives, leads that never convert, right? 

[22:33] John Steinert  And so in order to do that, you have to look for ways to prioritise even further. So if you prioritise on accounts, that's pretty good. But if you can only do accounts, and I was talking about accounts with category two and category three, right? So bitstream, harvesting, and publisher network, they only do accounts. So you may not even get, well, let's talk about the biggest problem, you don't know who in those accounts might be a lead, right? And so you have a volume problem again, because you could say, well, I could send email to all the people in those accounts. But now you have an email spamming kind of problem. And you're gonna expend a lot of effort, sending things to people who don't respond at all. 

[23:23] John Steinert  But the bigger problem there is when you try to take the type of intent that only tells you about accounts, and bring that over to sales and say, I got this great intent that everybody's talking about. Now, it's going to help you. The first question sales is going to ask you is, okay, you're telling me something about accounts that you think I should focus on. But who do I focus on in the account? That's the first question. And if they have a lot of contact data already, what you're basically telling them is, I think this account is doing something but now I expect you to cold call the whole account, right? I mean, and so it's hugely 

[24:10] Shahin Hoda  Good luck getting buy-in from sales of that. 

[24:13] John Steinert  Well, they're saying I'm doing that already. I'm cold calling all my accounts. So why do I need your thing? Right, because you're defaulting to cold call. But let's say they say, Okay, I really believe that you can tell me which accounts are surging. This second, they find no evidence that surges connected to performance of their accounts. They're not going to believe that surge is indicative of anything. So the false positive problem marketing really needs to think about before it goes and takes tools that might be useful and it's world and expect sales to climb on board. 

[24:58] John Steinert  When we're selling internally to sales, we can't think in terms of one to many marketing improvements, we have to think the way a salesperson thinks. Who is the specific person? What is the specific product? Where in the account is this happening? Is there an opportunity there that I can tell because I see a buying team or buying journey. So you have to think really hard about what elements of the sales process exist in this data enough so that you want to market it to them. So long story short, I'd say that there's sometimes some kinds of intent that are potentially helpful to marketing but not helpful to sales. There's other types of intent that could really help sales, and you have to interrogate the supplier to understand what the most positive use cases tend to be from that particular supplier? 

[26:00] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, and what's the granularity of the data that they're going to provide? You know, I've, I haven't completely formulated this thought, but I was thinking about it yesterday, of how in the, you know, B2B enterprise world, marketing doesn't have a lot of opportunity for experimentation, you know. Like marketing, and especially in demandGen is all about experimentation, right? It's like, Okay, let's go, go test that out and see what the results are. But you know, when, when you own the enterprise space, because you have to deal with sales, just like you mentioned, if you do too many experiments, and they don't work, sales is going to be like, forget about thisl. I'm not into this. 

[26:42] Shahin Hoda  These marketing guys, I don't know what they're doing, but I'm not gonna next time they come to me, and they're like this, they got something interesting, I'm not going to pay attention. So it becomes so important for marketing to be very calculated with their experiments, and what they're going to test and how they're going to go about it compared to, you know, the startup worlds of moving fast and breaking things because you can lose that bind from sales. And I think the other important thing about just like you said that, you know, sales is gonna lose trust is because their salary is dependent on it, right? Marketing is usually not as heavily dependent on the results to lead the reality of it right? In, in most organisations, there's yes, there's a quota of certain numbers, they got a hit. But sales is a lot heavier dependent on, you know, sometimes the marketing says and that could impact their money in their pocket? 

[27:37] John Steinert  Yeah, well, so let me rebut that a little bit. Sales are very powerful. And the power of this sort of negative press is extraordinary. And it's hugely dangerous. So I think what I hear you saying is, hey, just be super careful before you market this to sales, and be really upfront about what it can do and what is not so good at. That's one thing. The other piece is you actually have to train sales, on how to use behavioral data. And then you have to protect yourself as a marketer from the negative by making sure you have a good connection, very high up in the sales organisations so that the decision to one choose a particular provider and to drop a provider is not driven by hearsay. 

[28:29] John Steinert  So salespeople, I agree with you will drop things that don't work after like one try, right? So you send them a lead. And let's say you've got all kinds of information about this lead, but what you send is just the lead. So you know, it's really good. If the salesperson can't reach that company, that individual, they will disposition it as failure to connect, right? So now you've lost the whole opportunity there, right? So let's say you had one person who qualified as an MQL, and you had 10 people who are in different lead stages, right? You sent one, they disqualify that one, and they won't listen to any of the other people from that account that you send. So now they've disqualified a real opportunity. 

[29:19] John Steinert  So huge problem, that intent at the contact level solves if you can explain to sales that you can't disqualify a whole account based on one person. But if you can't change that behavior, they're going to disqualify things. And then they're going to say intent is bad. So if you choose a provider, that doesn't really help sales, and but you want and you say you got, you know, in marketing, we got some positive things with this provider, they were less expensive because they had a less expensive way of manufacturing behavioral data. 

[29:53] John Steinert  And now we want to upgrade but I've blown it with sales. Now you're gonna have a problem upgrading. So it really matters and what do you want to try to accomplish? When you decide on a particular supplier? Or before? What do you, what are you going to try to accomplish short term? And what would you like to accomplish long term, because that may determine which supplier you go with initially. And then sometimes we have a starter car, or starter home and we intend to move up. But if your starter home is so ugly, you can't sell it, then you're never going to have a chance to move up. So that's something to think about too. What is your long term goal with the supplier? Where is the source that you are looking at? 

[30:40] Shahin Hoda  Fantastic, okay. Now, John, I want to ask a couple of couple of rapid questions. We got four of them. And then we wrap it up. This has been awesome. Alright, the first one is what is one resource book, a blog podcast, a talk that fundamentally changes the way that you work, or you live or you know, you go about doing things? 

[31:06] John Steinert  I would say the podcast fundamentally allowed me to read while I exercise. 

[31:11] Shahin Hoda  What is the podcast? Well, is there a particular podcast? 

[31:15] John Steinert  Any podcast? So I don't, yeah, I like a lot of podcasts. One is called 99% Invisible. 

[31:21] Shahin Hoda  Gotcha. Okay, thank you very much for that. Second one. If you could give one advice to B2B marketers, or salespeople, what would it be? 

[31:30] John Steinert  Learn to use data. 

[31:33] Shahin Hoda  Third question, what are the influencers that you follow in marketing and sales space. 

[31:38] John Steinert  I just told you that I follow 150 or so... 

[31:42] Shahin Hoda  If you were going to pick one person, right, one person that you kind of admire or listen to or you enjoy their content? Who would that be? 

[31:51] John Steinert  Yeah, his name is Tomasz Tunguz. Tomasz Tunguz works for a venture capital firm called Redpoint Ventures. And he has done more for me in terms of explaining what investors are looking for at different stages in SAS company development than anybody else on the internet. 

[32:15] Shahin Hoda  Right, which then also correlates to some of the other things around the stock market. And all that, is that what you mean? 

[32:22] John Steinert  Actually no. So I'm always looking for how should I be measuring my activities as a CMO? 

[32:30] Shahin Hoda Right, right. 

[32:31] John Steinert  And so in order to understand that, I want to understand how external evaluators would measure my activities. And so as a venture capitalist, what he's doing is he's saying, okay, here's where you should be, here's what you should do at different stages of developing as a SaaS entrepreneur. And this is what VCs are going to be looking for. And so I learned the language of VCs. And then I start to analyse my business as an external person would see it. 

[33:04] Shahin Hoda  Fascinating. Last question, John, is, what's something that excites you about B2B today, 

[33:11] John Steinert  I've always found B2B exciting. Most of my friends and my spouse certainly don't find it exciting. I think the thing that I find exciting. There's two things one, B2B tech, particularly because tech actually solves, makes our lives better. It solves problems in business and life. And so B2B marketing is about helping companies solve the problem of explaining their tech and getting that tech in the hands of companies and the end users. And that's, you know, infinitely complicated and hard. And so there's always improvement in the process of doing that. And so it's endlessly fascinating. 

[33:56] John Steinert  And it's changing so much, that you're always learning something every day. And that keeps me interested in going to work because I can learn new things, I can learn how to do new things, we can do things that we never did, you know, five years ago, we wouldn't have had this interaction. And so I feel like I'm becoming somebody able to do things that I hadn't been able to do in the past. And having fun doing that, you know, meeting somebody from Australia, who I never knew before, is something we can now do, right? 

[34:22] John Steinert  And we wouldn't necessarily have done this as aggressively pre-COVID as we start looking around the world. And everybody's on Zoom. So all this stuff, this technology, this understanding of behavior is just really interesting and enabling of accomplishing things. And so it's just been wonderful. And you know, I've been doing it now for 30 years. And if anything, every so often, they invent something called the internet and they invent CRM, and then they invent the iPhone. And it just keeps getting cooler and cooler. One day B2B will be cool. Right now, it's pretty cool in that there's lots of need for smart people, and lots of successful companies. So as a career, it's cool. It's just not as cool as, like, sneakers. 

[35:22] Shahin Hoda  That's true. That's true. You're so right. It's, you know, there's so many moving parts, and you're learning every day. And the moment you like, you know, I feel like at one point you're looking at you like, Okay, if I can master this component, I'll be fine. It almost feels like it's a circle, that when it's in your knowledge is the area around the circle. And the moment you know, your knowledge grows, also the surface area of what you don't know. And it just grows, and you're like, I know less and less and less, even though you start to know more. So it's very fascinating. John, it has been amazing talking to you. And it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for jumping on the podcast. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna get a lot of insights from the chat, and especially around the pen.. So 

[36:12] John Steinert  Thanks. Thanks all for joining us. A lot of fun. And I'm always looking to do things with people from Australia because I'm dying to visit. And as I told you, you know, I'm a big fan of things like, marsupials. And so as soon as COVID is done, it's on the list. 

[36:22] Shahin Hoda  We'll get you down here, John, for sure. We'll get to that down here. Thanks so much. 

[36:27] John Steinert  Keep it up. Yeah, keep it up. Thank you.