Sorry, but that's not ABM - when marketers get ABM wrong
In this episode, host Shahin Hoda welcomes Brandon Redlinger from DemandBase, one of the main players in the ABM space.
Together, they identify scenarios where marketers think they are doing Account-Based Marketing but, unfortunately, they are not. Tune in to learn the classic mistakes to avoid and how to identify when you are missing the mark with ABM.
This episode’s guest:
Brandon Redlinger, Director of Demand Gen at Demandbase
Brandon leads demand gen at Demandbase, where he transitioned after the Engagio acquisition.
He has an extensive background and applies what he has learned in diverse roles into helping organisations create and orchestrate demand gen and ABM programs to power sales execution. He’s passionate about the intersection between technology and psychology, especially as it applies to growing businesses.
In his spare time, you'll often time him reading, playing hockey or spending time with his family.
Check him out on twitter @brandon_lee_09 or connect with him on LinkedIn (remember to mention this podcast in your request)
Conversation segments on this episode:
- [00:56] About Brandon's transition from Engagio's acquisition by DemandBase
- [02:34] Brandon defines Account-Based Marketing (ABM)
- [04:02] How direct mail can miss the mark
- [06:17] Brandon's thoughts on IP targeted ads
- [08:57] Why Sales and Marketing need to be on the same page
- [13:11] How Marketing can introduce ABM to Sales
- [17:15] How to introduce compensation into the conversation
- [20:49] The importance of having someone dedicated to marketing technology
- [24:13] What to do before buying ABM technology
Resources mentioned on this episode:
- About Engagio’s acquisition by Demanbase
- The ABM podcast
- Brandon’s articles on Demandbase’s blog
- Brandon’s articles on Engagio’s blog
- More articles by Brandon:
3 Mistakes Companies Make When Starting ABM and How to Avoid Them
The Role of SDRs in Account Based Sales
Here’s The Key Metric For ABM
Characteristics of Successful ABM Leaders and How to Hire the Right One For Your Org
- TOPO’s double funnel model
About the Growth Colony Podcast:
On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.
Get in touch!
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Episode Full Transcript:
[00:24] Shahin Hoda Hello, everyone, welcome to another show. I'm Shahin Hoda with xGrowth and today I'm talking to Brandon Redlinger, Director of Demand Gen at DemandBase about situations that marketers think they are doing ABM, but they really are not. There are a lot of misconceptions about ABM out there. And we're going to talk about some of the situations that it might look like ABM on the surface, but deep down, there are a lot of things that are going wrong. On that note, let's dive in. Brandon, thanks a lot for joining us.
[00:59] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, thanks for having me, Shahin.
[00:56] Shahin Hoda No, that's absolute pleasure. I mean, it's it's great to have someone from Demandbase. I mean, you guys are definitely one of the main players in the ABM space. But for those who might not be familiar with yourself or DemandBase, can you give us a quick intro?
[01:10] Brandon Redlinger Yeah. So Brandon Redlinger, I run Demand Gen at Demandbase. And I come to Demandbase from Engagio. And that acquisition happened about two months ago. So I was early team member on the engagement team and really built marketing from the ground up there. And then yeah, here we are four years later, almost, and joining the Demandbase team and it's been a pretty smooth transition. And they have a great team over there. And I think the most exciting thing is just the potential with the two products together. We are starting to integrate the two products now. And I mean, I really don't think there's anything like in the markets. I'm super excited about the platform itself.
[01:51] Shahin Hoda That's amazing. I mean, you know, the Engagio or Demandbase M&A was a big news in the ABM space. And it was something that a lot of people didn't expect. Like I was talking to a few kind of ABM consultants and they're like we did not see this coming. This is, this was definitely clearly it was in the making for a while, but a lot of people didn't see it coming. So, and yeah it was Engagio was was amazing with your content and your presence in the market and Demandbase is one of the oldest players and also one of the dominant players in the ABM, so that combination is like a superpower. So not sure. It definitely passed the legal requirements but it was a big news.
[02:34] Shahin Hoda Okay. Now we're going to talk about what people do that, are that is not necessarily ABM. But at the very beginning, can you give us a like your quick definition of ABM like really short. How do you go about and define ABM?
[02:49] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, that's a great question. So Account Based Marketing to me, like it comes down to a few things. You know, it's a go-to-market strategy that really coordinates personalised sales and marketing efforts to land and expand target accounts. So, one, it's a go-to-market strategy. It's not a specific tactic. It's not a campaign. It's not a one off thing. It's personalised, and it's relevant. It's between sales and marketing. And honestly, we're seeing a lot of people pull in customer success as well. And, you know, there's a lot to be said on the post sales side of the business, because, you know, it's about landing and expanding those target accounts.
[03:25] Brandon Redlinger If you're doing real true enterprise deals, and you're relying really heavily on ABM, then you actually are selling into existing customers. Your existing customer base a lot, you know, I've seen stats out there, it's like 70% of your revenue can come from existing account, if you're doing that real true ABM. Of course, it's a spectrum, right? A lot of software companies that we work with to more on the sides that Engagio was before it got acquired, you know, less than 100 people, there's a kind of a balance between your traditional Demand Gen and your ABM. So definitely takes both sides of it to work.
[04:02] Shahin Hoda No, that makes sense. That makes sense. And yeah, I think that strategy components are really important. You touched on that quite a lot. And I think we're gonna talk about that here to some degree. Tell me about some of the situations you've come across, right, that marketer comes to and they're like, yeah, we're doing this and we're doing ABM. And when you dig a little bit deeper, you're like, this is not a yeah,
[04:26] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, one little one’s that comes to mind right now for me is direct mail, kind of direct mail is hot again. It's new, it's back, it's fun. And we see a lot of people that are just like, yeah, we're doing ABM, we're sending direct mail packages. And specifically, they're sending like these higher value direct mail pack. And some of them are even sending some custom packages, like which is great, but a lot of times, all I see is the marketer themselves, they actually do it for the picture. They take a picture of it and then they post it on social and then they're bragging about how many likes they got on social. It's like that's kind of missing the point.
[05:01] Brandon Redlinger You know what I mean? It's like it has to be a true sales and marketing aligned play. And then yeah, if it's a direct mail package, that's great. Otherwise, if it's just a direct mail package to get in, meaning you hand that person off and then you're on to the next direct mail package, we actually see direct mail works great at every stage of the funnel. So it's not just let me send you this cool new interesting, fun creative thing to get the meeting. It's all right. Maybe this deal has gone dark. What can we do to wake that dead play? Oh, wake that dead deal. Or maybe it's these customers coming up for renewal? It's a big deal. It's one of our key logos.
[05:39] Brandon Redlinger How can we, I caught the surprise and delight factor? How can we surprise and delight our customers at every touchpoint? Because it matters a lot. And it really builds your brand at the same time, right? It delivers a great experience. They associate this great experience with your brand. And then kind of the cherry on top is maybe they actually take a picture of it and tweet it out or share with their team or whatever that might be afterwards. But like, that's not the goal. I don't really care about the package itself and the how well it does on social media, on LinkedIn, how many likes it gets like, give me the meeting, give me the revenue. Give me that customer that comes back time and again.
[06:17] Shahin Hoda Yeah, and you're absolutely right. I mean, even in sending the packages, there's a lot of thought that could go into it that integrated fully with the ABM strategy. What are your thoughts about some of the other things? So for example, what do you think about IP targeted ads? Right, those are big, those were quite popular. And what are your thoughts on those?
[06:39] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, I think ads can play a pretty good role in ABM more for the air cover. So let me make sure I'm starting with the audience. So here's what happens all the time. As marketers dream up a campaign and then in a silo on their own, and then they start promoting it. And then sales gets the lead and they go, wait, what is this content, I have no idea what this is? What's going on? This lead is crap. And they don't work it. And then, you know, sales marketing butthead again.
[07:07] Brandon Redlinger What I do and what those smart companies that are doing ABM well do, is let's actually start with the audience. Let's make sure that I'm aligned with sales on these target accounts, and making sure these are the right people to go after in the first place. And then, let them match the offer to them. And then we can start to deliver ads in a very thoughtful way to the people we care about at those target accounts. So, and it's, again, it's more of an air cover thing.
[07:36] Brandon Redlinger Like when was the last time you as a founder, converted on an ad and took a meeting based off an ad itself? Probably not, recently or hardly ever at all, right? So it's not something I'm going to really count on for those meetings, but like I do think there is something to be said for some of that top of funnel awareness and brand. I know brand is like one of the hardest things to measure. But if you've been doing marketing long enough, you will get you know, there are some leading indicators that you will get a sense for.Yeah, this is actually having a good impact on my brand.
[08:09] Brandon Redlinger So it could be things like impression share on your search. Or it could be things like, you know, earned the media. It could be things like how much a rep is coming into competitors on deal cycles, anything like that. Or how warm those deals are in the first place, right? These are little bit harder things to measure sometimes, but you know, ads can play a big role, but I do think it is one of those things too, where sometimes people like yeah, I'm doing ABM, I have ABM ads.
[08:38] Brandon Redlinger Well, you know, let's start with a strategy. Let's make sure ABM is the right strategy in the first place. And then we can figure out our ads, the right tactic to help me execute my ABM strategy. So it's always like, it's always a great layer to go on top of everything, but I don't think it's necessarily the place you should be starting all the time.
[08:57] Shahin Hoda Gotcha. And on that topic of, you know, hey, we're doing ABM but this is not really ABM. You kind of touched on it briefly was the sales and marketing alignment, right? And getting that sorted. And I see, I don't know what your experience is, I see a lot of marketers that are again, quote unquote running ABM but they're running it independently. Like, there is, it's their marketing departments job and sales is not involved. What are your thoughts on that?
[09:23] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, I know, I mean, we see this all the time, too, right? Like we even have companies, we've even seen companies like sales is going after a specific target accounts and they're doing ABM. Marketing's going after specific accounts and saying they're doing ABM, but they're not actually going after the same accounts. So they're both like yeah, we're of course, we're doing ABM. It's like not well, kind of, you're doing it pretty poorly, if you asked me but like, you know, if you want to do it, right, yeah, let's let's align around those right accounts in the first place. And then let's align together on those activities that are happening.
[09:56] Brandon Redlinger And so any content that I create, anything that my team does on the demand gen side of things, I want to make sure that's actually supporting sales, because that's ultimately what marketing is here for, right? It is to support sales. So I never have conversations with my sales team that's like those marketers, all they do is write blog posts and posts on social media, like that my team knows that we do a lot more than that, because they can actually see all that activity that we're doing to drive that awareness.
[10:22] Brandon Redlinger And you know, we get a lot of respect from the sales reps because they they know the activities that we are doing, we they have full visibility into the things that are happening. So it's not just here's a lead, go figure out what to do with it. It's here's someone who converted at our target account, they are key persona, and here are the things that marketing did to lead up to that marketing qualified account. So you know, we don't do marketing qualified leads, we do marketing qualified accounts.
[10:48] Brandon Redlinger And I, you know, I have seen people who do, like, I'd like TOPO's double funnel model pretty well. So you're working with marketing, like,you're working with leads, at the same time you're working with accounts and then it wants to get to that qualified stage, that's when the funnels come together. So I do like that, I've seen companies execute that pretty well. But at the end of the day, that just means the both the sales and marketing teams do have to be aligned at the end of the day. And I think one of the biggest things people get hung up on is like, why sales and marketing are not on the same page? It's like around measurement and compensation, right?
[11:24] Brandon Redlinger So marketing is still going to be measured on downloads or retweets, or whatever that might be. And then sales, of course, is measured on closed won revenue. So once we start to move marketing and hold them accountable to more down funnel metrics, sales goes, oh, there, they actually do care about the quality of lead, and they do actually care if they start closing. Okay now, now we're on the same page. And then maybe even, marketing starts getting comped on those down funnel metrics. Like what's what, what motivates people more than anything right now? It's money. So if you move the goalposts on what they're being compensated on, it's going to change their behavior. So if I want them aligned with sales, maybe ally, I align their comp a little bit more closely.
[13:11] Shahin Hoda That's very interesting. I want to come back to that. But I want to also talk about, so ABM, in my experience, tell me if I'm wrong or if you see some difference. ABM usually is generated from the marketing department side. It originally came about as Account Based Marketing. And now it's Account Based everything. Accounts experience and all these other you know other buzzwords, but it originally came out of marketing.
[13:34] Shahin Hoda What are the organisations that you see, sell ABM successfully to their sales team? So that the sales team is not like, oh, great marketing is going to do another webinar. That's fantastic. Are the sales team being like this? Is this the new gimmick? Is this the new color of the month that marketing is doing? What do you see in successful organisations, where marketing is able to sell ABM to the sales team? What do they do?
[13:59] Brandon Redlinger Two things. And I think we actually kind of touched on them a little bit of both. But it's like giving them all the insights into what's happening at their target accounts. So it's delivering those insights in a relevant timely manner. So, like marketing, we have a big budget, we have a big tech stack, we have a lot of things at our disposal, that give us a pretty fair advantage that honestly sales could use as well.
[14:25] Brandon Redlinger So we're, we have our scoring techniques and software that helps us score, you know, leads and accounts. Let's make sure that all of that data gets pushed over to sales so that they know exactly what's happening at that account. And do it in real time too. So we can set up we can set up a few different things. We can set up alerts, on a you know, a key persona from one of your target accounts. Did this thing alert a sales rep right away? Or it could be, they reach, you know, your MQA threshold? Ideally, of course, I think that's pretty standard. You want to alert yourself sales reps right away too.
[15:01] Brandon Redlinger But it could also be things just like, let me send you a report every single week of the activity that's happening at your target accounts. Maybe they didn't necessarily reach MQA yet, but you can start to see a trend over time. So that's, that's one of the things that I want to make sure my sales rep see. Maybe one of our target accounts is, you know, no engagement, no engagement, no engagement. And then the last two weeks, it's a big spike. They still haven't reached the MQA threshold yet. But that's a good sign that that big spike, something's happening over there.
[15:31] Brandon Redlinger So if I can deliver that insight to my sales rep, and then they can start to get ahead of that. And then that's one of the big ones, is just delivering insights to sales. Insights on what's happening at target accounts. And honestly, not even just target accounts, either. Intent data plays a big role in sales these days. So what are those target accounts? Or what are those people that are accounts that are not on my target list that are actually showing interest and have a high propensity to buy. So like, I can't have every single account on target account list. That is, you know, by definition, I do want that to be focused.
[16:06] Brandon Redlinger But, there are those companies that are in market that are not on your target account list that I want to make sure I don't miss. That's a low hanging fruit that my team can go after. So if I use this intent data and we can look at trending topics, and companies that are trending on the topics that I care a lot about, let me send those over to my sales reps too. And just make sure that we're making the most of those opportunities. So sales loves that stuff, right?
[16:31] Brandon Redlinger It's like and then giving them again, that visibility into those key topics that are trending. Otherwise, if I just send it over to sales, and I say, hey, this person is or this account is trending. I don't know what to do with that yet. And then if I layer on some, like maybe first party engagement data, this account is trending. And on our site, they've actually interacted with this content or this blog, or maybe this email. It gives them a little bit more insight into how to actually make intent data actionable. I think that's one of the challenges that people have out there is like, just making it actionable. They don't know what to do with it. So let's give them as much information as much context as possible with that account. And then they can actually start to, you know, make the most of it.
[17:15] Shahin Hoda Yeah. And that's really gets them excited and makes them feel like they're part of the process. And very obviously important. The other thing that you mentioned was compensation. Now, that's not a marketing conversation. That's, you know, that goes above, that's probably the CMO level conversation, maybe even, you know, probably probably at a CMO level. Tell me about that. Like aligning and that's more that sounds like more selling ABM to marketing than to that of sales but I also imagined that it would have a very positive impact on sales because then they're like, oh, you are getting paid for something that is going to make me commission. That's good. It sounds like we're in the same boat.
[17:58] Brandon Redlinger At best, right now, what happens is sales reps, they need marketing to come in and help them close a deal. They close that deal. They get a big payday. And then like they go out and buy the marketer dinners, or maybe a nice bottle of wine. It's like, yeah, thanks for the wine. Enjoy your, you know, six figure, five figures, you know, payday right there. You're welcome, like, thanks for the wine. Right?
[18:23] Brandon Redlinger But like, you know, some marketers will still do it. But like, if you want every single marketer to really care about those help you close those deals. Yeah, like I want to be compensated on those same things that sales reps are like, I don't expect to be paid the same as a sales rep. But I do want a little bit more than just, you know, that hundred dollar bottle of wine or whatever it might be. So what about what about a $200? Well, that's good. No, it's getting there.
[18:52] Shahin Hoda Yeah, and that's very, it's very interesting concept. I know it's a challenging topic, because It just requires a lot of shifting in the organisation, both thinking and structural shifts. Like, you know, we got to change compensation. That's not the easiest conversation to have with in any organisation, right?
[19:14] Shahin Hoda Like they would put those plan together at the beginning of the year. This is the this is how you're compensated. And mid year change that we're even towards the end of the year, completely changing be like, hey, you were being compensated in MQLs before, now you're going to be compensated on this completely different thing, and the marketer will freak out. And I would imagine you would have half of them embracing it and half of them leaving.
[19:38] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, and a few things that we've seen work decently well at some of our customer accounts, and other people I've talked too, is creating, like they have their ABM team, you know, at Engagio, we had an ABM marketer, an SDR and a sales rep. And then compensated together. You know, it's not direct one to one, your sales reps are going to make more money. But like as a team, those deals that you close, you're going to be compensated on together. So each team and how the team actually performs will dictate the marketers and SDRs and these compensation.
[20:12] Brandon Redlinger So they are definitely aligned because they as a team want to close as much as they can, because there'll be paid more. And I have seen on the other end, just like your ABM marketer is just the one that's getting paid on those deals closed or those deals that they are in. And the rest of the marketing team, they're on their traditional metrics, or maybe at best, they're comped on, you know, like pipeline generated. I think that's a good start. Like, let's move your marketing team to being comped on pipeline instead of just your downloads and MQLs or meetings or whatever it is. Like do those meetings actually turn into a pipeline, which is what sales goes about.
[20:49] Shahin Hoda Now one of the other things that you are a big fan of, and you have a very interesting position and very unique perspective on where ABM works well and where IBM doesn't work well and in which organisation. What do those organisation where ABM works well do that makes ABM work well? And one of the things that we've previously spoke about was having someone dedicated to martech, having rev ops or something like that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
[21:17] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, 100%. So, you know, someone who really owns the technology, and owns the integration, and owns the operation side of things, really changes the game. We know that our top customers, the ones who are doing ABM well who are just killing it with ABM. Yeah, they have that one person who owns it. So it's not just pay the marketing person, you know, the marketing ops person now owns the technology. Like that person really has to understand how all the technologies talk to each other.
[21:47] Brandon Redlinger It has to understand how that information gets to the reps, and they have to have just an overall understanding of the ABM strategy as well. So, like we're seeing rev ops even bigger coming a big thing these days, more people with RevOps titles, which is great. And even people who have direct reporting lines up to a CMO in with RevOps titles, which I absolutely love, like those people get it.
[22:13] Brandon Redlinger Because if the information is, you know, maybe one system says one thing, one system says something else, you know, marketing is in their Marketo, sales in Salesforce, different information, they're fighting over what information is correct. I don't want to have to fight over that, right? Like no wonder. sales and marketing don't always get along 100% every day, in fact, yeah, they're cats and dogs sometimes, right? It's because of things like that. So your operations person really has to understand, alright, which data is correct? How do I keep my data clean? And how do I really standardise everything across the board.
[22:50] Brandon Redlinger So you know that that person is going to require a deep understanding of technology and your systems and how the underlying systems work with each other. Though it's not just, hey, I can go into Salesforce and build a report, it's a, how does Salesforce think about how to build reports? It's like, how does Salesforce understand campaigns? And how does that work with my marketing automation system? And then once I fully understand my systems, I can make sure that all the dots are being connected. And then I can make sure the data is being routed to the right people at the right time.
[23:24] Shahin Hoda Yeah, so it's not just one person who, I'm super good at Marketo. It's really having that holistic view of all the martech or not necessarily,
[23:35] Brandon Redlinger Yeah.
[23:35] Shahin Hoda Martech, or all the tech that we're using and how they talk to each other. That's, and I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. And they're like, yeah, we definitely have, you know, people who are dedicated to our technology, but then you're like, are they dedicated to all the technology?
[23:51] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, exactly.
[23:52] Shahin Hoda Or is it only marketing technology.
[23:53] Brandon Redlinger I think those people are far and few between that understand your marketing automation and your CRM, really well. So if you have one of those people, make sure they're happy. Make sure to get now. Exactly, exactly.
[24:08] Shahin Hoda And give them some of that sales commission.
[24:10] Brandon Redlinger Send them some wine.
[24:11] Brandon Redlinger Get some of the sales commission. Exactly.
[24:13] Shahin Hoda Sounds good. Sounds good. Brandon, this has been amazing. I really enjoyed it. Before we wrap up, is there anything that you reckon I haven't brought up that you think it would be good to talk about with regards to everything that we've been talking about?
[24:26] Brandon Redlinger Yeah. Well, on the technology piece, like one thing I will say is, like, start with the strategy first. Don't go out and buy ABM technology because you have to do ABM. Make sure it's the right thing for your organisation. And then once you figure out, yeah, ABM is the right strategy, and make sure you figure out how you are actually going to deploy it.
[24:46] Brandon Redlinger There's a lot of different flavors of ABM, make sure you figure out the one that's right for you, and then go out and buy technology. Just because you have ABM technology doesn't mean you're doing good ABM. You could still be doing pretty crappy work marketing, but doing it, you know, faster and more expensively. Right?
[25:06] Shahin Hoda Spending more money.
[25:07] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, exactly. I think that's what technology does a good job at is just kind of amplifying stuff. So if you're doing crappy ABM, and you know, you buy technology to do it, you're gonna amplify the crap. But let's just make sure we're doing it right in the first place.
[25:21] Shahin Hoda Yeah, no, I love it. And you're right, I was talking to someone and they worked at one of the big direct mail platforms. And they were telling me about how some of their clients come and say, one of their clients went in, went and ordered, got these $800 custom-made and custom branded popcorn machines that they sent as a direct mail piece. And I'm like, that's cool. Was it along with their strategy? Like, what was their strategy? Because that will be interesting, right?
[25:50] Brandon Redlinger Yeah.
[25:50] Shahin Hoda Because if it's not aligned with the strategy, just like you said, it's a really expensive direct mail piece that could potentially not work, but you know, I'm sure everybody loves a good popcorn machine.
[26:02] Brandon Redlinger Yeah, and look, this is also, this is coming from a guy who sells ABM technology. I'm telling you don't start with the technology. Don't tell my boss. Hopefully my boss doesn't see this, right?
[26:14] Shahin Hoda Well, it's gonna be in Australia. So we'll keep it quiet there. Spread the word there, we try to hold back from getting to North America. But no, Brandon, I really appreciate it and look, if anyone has more questions or they want to know more about Demandbase, what's the best way for them to do so?
[26:32] Brandon Redlinger We put out a lot of content, if you just go to Demandbase.com. I have started to write on the Demandbase blog now. A lot of Engagio stuff, we were known for our content, you can still access that probably through the end of the year until everything moves over to Demandbase.com. But check out that content there. And if you want to get in touch with me directly, I'm relatively active on LinkedIn. So free to shoot me a note, say you heard me on the podcast, and that I will accept to the invite. I usually don't accept invites if they're just playing connection requests.
[27:04] Shahin Hoda Now I hear you, I did same here or if they're obviously pitching you right there and invite, right?
[27:10] Brandon Redlinger Oh yeah, exactly.
[27:11] Shahin Hoda I love those. But hold on, you're also doing a podcast yourself, which is completely ABM-focused, can you tell us a little bit about that as well.
[27:19] Brandon Redlinger Yes, absolutely. So it's called the ABM podcast.
[27:21] Shahin Hoda All right.
[27:22] Brandon Redlinger And we are diving deep into ABM. It's with the ABM Leadership Alliance, which Demandbase actually leads ABM Leadership Alliance and we got a lot of smart technology people in that alliance and we are interviewing people from those companies and their customers every other week.
[27:41] Brandon Redlinger So we're sitting down with practitioners who are deep in ABM and figuring out what are they doing? What are the people who are doing ABM really well, doing? And we're picking their brains. We're going deep, we're getting tactical with it. So it's not high level. hey, what is ABM? It's all right. Here's a specific channel, what are those tactics every day that you're doing? So it's going to be very practical advice.
[28:04] Shahin Hoda That's awesome. So definitely make sure to check that out. And on that note, Brandon, thanks so much.
[28:10] Brandon Redlinger Thanks Shahin, I really appreciate it, man. This is a lot of fun.
[28:13] Shahin Hoda The same over here.