Podcast: How Fujitsu Approaches Deal-Based Marketing

Subscribe to the Growth Colony Podcast on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | Stitcher | Acast | Pocket Casts | Breaker | TuneIn

Episode topic: How Fujitsu Approaches Pipeline Acceleration & Deal-Based Marketing

Join host Shahin Hoda as he sits down with Andrea Clatworthy, Director, Head of Europe Marketing Transformation at Fujitsu, to discuss the ins and outs of deal-based marketing. 

In this episode, learn how pipeline acceleration and the power of storytelling, personalisation, and relationships can drive success in DBM. 

Discover real-life examples and case studies as Andrea shares her expertise on how to implement DBM effectively, including the use of personalisation to engage prospects.

This episode’s guest: 

Conversation segments on this episode:

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• About Fujitsu
• About xGrowth
• A Practitioner's Guide to Account-Based Marketing

About the Growth Colony Podcast

On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.

Growth Colony is produced by Alexander Hipwell, Allysa Maywald and Shahin Hoda from xGrowth

It was edited by Dave Somido with additional editing by Allysa Maywald and music arrangement by Alexander and Allysa.

Special thanks to Teena Wabe, we couldn’t make the show without you. 

Growth Colony is hosted by Shahin Hoda, Director of Growth at xGrowth. 

If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe, and give us a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch!

We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

Episode Full Transcript

[01:16] Shahin Hoda  Hello everyone, welcome to another episode. I'm Shahin Hoda with xGrowth and today, I'm talking to Andrea Clatworthy, Global Head of Account-based Marketing at Fujitsu about pipeline acceleration and deal-based marketing. Now, this is quite a hot topic, especially now where a lot of organisations are looking at expanding their customers and diving deeper in terms of the customers that they currently have and the deals that they have in the pipeline. So I'm super excited to have this conversation with Andrea. Andrea is a superstar in the ABM world, so I am very much looking forward to this chat. Andrea, thanks for joining.

[01:58] Andrea Clatworthy  Shahin, thank you very much for inviting me and looking forward to having a chat. 

[02:02] Shahin Hoda  Same here. Same here. I am, uh, I'm super excited for this chat and I think what would be really good is if we could define deal-based marketing or DBM for people who are listening. I love to hear your definition of what deal-based marketing is.

[02:21] Andrea Clatworthy  Cool. That's a really good question, and people often ask me this. So if you think about ABM, which we're all familiar with. Account-based marketing is about the marketer working really closely with the sales team. This is in one-to-one ABM. To deepen relationships and grow with that account. Deepen relationships. Think about, how do you position, what's your reputation and the revenue will follow, right? So that's about, uh, working with your time scales, thinking about what stories you wanna take to that customer to achieve those objectives. So, very much all time scales. Deal-based marketing is working to the customer's time scales. So, they've probably already worked out what they wanna buy. So, in  theory, they would've issued an RFP or something similar in our industry anyway.  So they're caught a lot further down the buying journey.

[03:13] Andrea Clatworthy  So deal-based marketing is about still working really closely with the account team, or the sales team, or the pursuit team, whatever you wanna call them, to convince the customer to choose you. They've already made a choice that they want to do whatever it is they're trying to do. They won't need to buy something to help them achieve a business objective of theirs. And deal-based marketing is about encouraging, persuading, if you like, that they're gonna choose you above the competition and it's working to their timescale. So if they've issued an RFP, request for a proposal, then they probably put a time scale in there. So you're working to their time scale not to yours. 

[03:52] Shahin Hoda  Got it. Okay. And Andrea, what situation does it make sense to implement deal-based marketing? 

[03:59] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. It's not right for every situation. So the way we think about it here is that when it's a large deal, and that might be large from our perspective, or large from the customer's perspective, or it's strategic, or it's super important, um, and the numbers stack up, then it's worth deploying DBM. So when wouldn't you use it is sometimes an easier way to think about it. So, if for instance, the value of the deal is, I don't know, a 100K, okay?  And you know, as an experienced marketer that you've gotta at least spend 20K to do some really good meaningful marketing and marketing communications to help with that deal. Then that might be the entire margin from that deal, 20K and a 100K deal.

[04:51] Shahin Hoda  Yeah. 

[04:52] Andrea Clatworthy  So, would you do it? Well, there you go. Then you need to make a judgement call, right? So if that little deal could then be the gateway to, to much more, and you really wanna win that customer, maybe their new customer, then maybe you take the hit on that. But if it isn't, if this is run rate stuff, or it's an existing customer, then you probably think twice before making that kind of investment. So, I think some of it's around those commercial decisions, and some of it will be around, what's going on in the world of the customer and how important that customer is to you.

[05:28] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. Do you have, like a, when looking at DBM, do you have a decision-making matrix that you go through? And there are certain criteria that they would have certain weights associated to them, to whether they qualify for DBM in the organisation or not. Because I would imagine an all-pursuit team is gonna be like, I want DBM for this thing. When can we start, right? 

[05:54] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. 

[05:54] Shahin Hoda  Do you have that model in place?  

[05:55] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah. We kind of do. And that there's some real key things that we'll have a discussion with the account team or on the pursuit team. Where are we on that buying journey? If RFP submission is like next week, then you know, well there's only so much you can do, right? So, yeah. Have you got time to create the story? Have you got time to think through the narrative? Have you got time to identify the decision-makers, and work out how you're gonna reach them. So there's a time factor here, which is a really important one. The other thing, that commercial piece is really important too. Now we get round that here by,, so for ABM, marketing takes that cost generally. But for DBM, we're really clear that that's a cost of sale. So, the pursuit team has got to cover that cost. 

[06:43] Andrea Clatworthy  So, that's a decision they need to make in terms of, do we wanna make this investment for the cost of sale? Are we gonna erode all of our margin? Back-to-back to that chestnut, really. Some of the other things to think through is, you know, can we resource it? It's quite important. And where are we on qualification? So if we think perhaps we're column fodder, which is very rare these days, then, then why would we put our precious time and effort into working on that? When actually perhaps there's more attractive or more other deals that have got a higher percentage of us winning. So there's some judgement call that has to take place. In the same way that salespeople or sales leadership will make a judgement call on which deals to take to bed, then where we do similar process for DBM. 

[07:35] Shahin Hoda  From a timeline perspective, what is, what do you think is the minimum doable time, from your experience? Like, what is it that you like, if it's under this, I'm not touching this. Is there a timeframe that you usually have in mind that that's a massive red flag?

[07:54] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah, I mean, that next week RFP submission thing, is it that's a no-no, really. But it is not just that submission. So if you think about the buying journey that customers go through, there'd be several stages in an RFP process. And if it's a very long process and sometimes they are, can be, you know, one or two years, then deploying DBM in those scenarios is probably really sensible because you want to continue to be front of mind with that customer, so they choose you. So it's a few things to think about then. So let's go back to the RFP submission next week, perhaps that's the first stage. And really, the team is trying to get on the shortlist, maybe. That's risky to do that, but then if the process after that is, you know, six months or something, then you would consider that for DBM. 

[08:41] Andrea Clatworthy  What we normally do is we look at where we are in our sales stage processes. So, we have a one to seven sales stage model, and seven is one or lost. It's eleven. So if we- and six is close the deal, five is win, uh, is bid. So, if we're at three or four where we are either in pre-qualification and we've qualified it and we're making that initial investment, then that's a really good time to engage. Part of DBM is about shaping the story. And if the story's already set in stone, the team have already really clear what they're doing and they're just going for it. Then the opportunity to influence that story is probably minimal. And then you have to think about, well, what's viable? What can we actually do?

[09:24] Andrea Clatworthy  So asking questions like, do we know all the decision makers in that bio group? Have we got relationships with them already? And perhaps if we don't, then deal-based marketing can help that. So we can help identify who those decision makers are and start the communication process to create those relationships with those people. Back to this, everyone's got a choice. Some people will have a preference on which suppliers that they might choose based upon history or bias or whatever. So convincing them that actually, you've got the best possible solution for them in their company, and they should choose you is achievable with DBM. But there's loads of factors. It's not, it's not a yes-no kind of thing. There's a kind of degree of grey, if you like. 

[10:13] Shahin Hoda  Andrea, you've mentioned narrative and building the story a couple of times now. Can you unpack that a little bit and in terms of like, what do you mean by that? 

[10:25] Andrea Clatworthy  It's really in tech, which is where I work, it's really common that we'd be presenting a solution to a business problem in pure technical terms. But actually most human beings, regardless of whether they're buying for their company or buying for themselves, will additionally have some emotive part of their decision making. So if you build a story that isn't just, this is the tech we've got Mr. Customer, but this is how we can help you, Mr. or Mrs. Customer, achieve your business objectives, and this is perhaps how it'll make you feel. 

[11:02] Andrea Clatworthy  Bringing that emotion into it. Bringing the real businesses benefit of partnering with us rather than anyone else. And that's not just describing the technical solution that you're gonna deliver. That's describing what great looks like, what great feels like. What will be different after they've bought from you and you've deployed with them whatever it is they're buying. So it is just turning it around just a little bit. So we are thinking much more of the business benefits, the language of great, rather than the language of technical. 

[11:33] Shahin Hoda  And Andrea, what do you usually find the input to that? Like where do you get the input in order to create that story/narrative?

[11:45] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Some of it will be in their RFP. So, it's definitely worth reading that. Right, they've put a lot of effort into creating that document and quite often, they'll have some of that background and that, you know, this is why we're doing it type stuff. It's really easy to forget that other sources of information will be publicly available stuff. So what's the company's strategy? And can you work out where, whatever it is they're buying is contributing to achieving that strategy. So then you're thinking about what are the imperatives and the initiatives that the customers put in place. And it might be, you know, there’s sustainability agenda.

[12:22] Andrea Clatworthy  It might be how do they improve customer experience for their customers. It might be how do they improve employee experience for their employees. So thinking about the end objective enables you to craft that story so that you are addressing that, rather than features and benefits of what you've got. You can ask the customer what often there'd be dialogue in the, in the deal process. Ask them. You know, human beings. You know, take that first party insight if you like. You know, where the accounting, the pursuit team are having dialogue with the customer, make sure they ask those questions. Why? Why are you buying it? What are you trying to achieve? And then you can weave that back into the story that you're creating.

[13:02] Shahin Hoda  Very interesting. Okay, so that's the input of it. And then you create the narrative. Let's talk about the outcome which is, which I'm guessing it becomes more tactical in terms of you've now built the narrative. What is the outcome from there and, and what shape and form can DBM take from a tactical perspective?

[13:26] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. So you've created the narrative, you've got your messaging out, you've got your value proposition, so you're clear on what messages you wanna land with the decision makers. So then I touched on this already. Identify who those decision makers are and work out where your relationship is with them. Are they neutral? Are they advocates? Are they negative about you? And then you should target those individuals with your marketing communications. How do you do that? To answer your question, what are the tactics? Just think about the entire marketing mix, the toolbox at your disposal. Use everything. Use above the line, below the line, through the line. Make it up if you need to, but get your message in front of those people. 

[14:10] Andrea Clatworthy  So you can think about all of those marketing tactics and then not forgetting that, you've got this great communication channel, which is your deal team. So your human beings from your company talking to their human beings. So they've got their part of this, they're part of the communication channel to land those messages with those key people. So if you're doing that in a really joined up, omnichannel integrated way, then the chances of success are higher. Chances of your customers starting, or prospects starting to hear, starting to understand the value that you are bringing, by you delivering that story are much higher. So tactically, everything.

[14:54] Shahin Hoda  Leverage anything. 

[14:54] Andrea Clatworthy  Every single tactic

[14:56] Shahin Hoda  Yeah. Just get that message in front of them. 

[14:57] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So sometimes, you would've created content and created engagement opportunities, but other times you might be leveraging what you've already got in place. So, for instance, supposing you are, uh, sponsoring, I don't know, a third party event. Just think of a big one. I don't know that most people know Mobile World Congress perhaps, which moves around what's in Barcelona. Doesn't matter where it is. If you are gonna be there and you know your customer's gonna be there because you've done the insight and you understand that, and perhaps you've invited them to be there, then in that invitation process, make sure your messages are woven into the invites. 

[15:34] Andrea Clatworthy  Be that email, or however else you're gonna invite them. And then once they're there, make sure you're landing that message again. And that might be through the conversation, or perhaps it's how you've got your stand, or your space message. And then the follow up process, land the message again. So you've hit them with the same message consistently, at least three times through that process. And you may have already decided to be at that event. So there's no additional costs. So, you are leveraging what you already have. Does that make sense? 

[16:04] Shahin Hoda  I love that. It does. It does make sense. What are some of the mistakes that you've seen marketers make with deal-based marketing? 

[16:16] Andrea Clatworthy  That's a really good question.I think there's some bear traps to look out for. If the deal is in the public sector, so into a government organisation, quite often, there'll be rules about how you can market to them when you are in that buying process. So if  in that scenario that you're working in, the customer's really clear, do not market to us during this period, and you do, then you could find yourself out of the running. So things, yeah, there's little things like that to look out for. Sometimes a customer will tell you, do not, even if they're not in the public sector, do not overtly market to me. 

[16:56] Andrea Clatworthy  So then you've gotta think about, well, how do I land my messages indirectly? So, a big mistake would be just using email, because that's direct communication. If you decide that email's gonna be your primary channel, and it might be, that's okay. Then make sure the email’s coming from whoever the relationship holder is with that customer. Not from marketing, but from that person. Who’s being coached by the customer through the buying process, or is the prime person who's engaging with the customer. Make it about building that relationship between your human being and their human being.

[17:35] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. What are, you know, what are some of the channels that you've used for kind of getting that message indirectly in front of the customer. What comes to mind? 

[17:47] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah. So there's a really lovely one that you can do. So if it's an existing customer, then if you go through that almost an advocacy process where perhaps you'd create a case study on what you've done in the past.And then you do that with the customer, right? And then of course they need to get it approved. So then there'll be some circulation of that case study amongst people that need to make use of it. And you are reminding them then that you are awesome and you've got an existing partnership and, and you can start to suddenly land some forward looking messages in there. So it's kind of, it's direct communication, but it's a process that you are working through to create a piece of content.

[18:28] Andrea Clatworthy  So you're not marketing them about whatever it is that you are discussing with them through, in that buying process. You're reminding them of what you've done in the past and how good the future could feel, so that's one way to do it. Other indirect stuff, do some PR, you know, getting your message out there in publications that they naturally read, so you are turning up where they already are. That's a really good way of doing it and events is a good way to do that. I wouldn't, things to avoid. Perhaps you wouldn't do tons of paid media that directly targets them, you know? So that's very obvious, isn't it? And people start seeing your message everywhere. Then they're gonna go, oh, I'm being overtly marketed to. It could change their opinion of you and ask what you don't want, you know? 

[19:14] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. But yeah, you don't wanna make the buying process more difficult. You don't wanna make the choice more difficult. You want them to naturally go, well, these guys know what they're talking about. I'm loving what they've done in the past. And maybe they've seen some great case studies that you've pushed out there gently, you know, throughout your channels. I think using all of those possible tactics that you can think of that are not about directly communicating with them is a good way to think of it. And actually, really, I've talked about omnichannel and integrated, that's the way to think about what a deal-based marketing campaign plan could look like. As many channels as you can think of orchestrated without bombarding your customer or your prospect. 

[19:56] Shahin Hoda  Andrea, is there any difference? You talked about how there are seven stages in the sales process and how it starts to really, DBM’s start to really In stage three, four, and, and onwards, are there any differences that are very clear and, and, and must be pertained to consideration in terms of how you approach a deal based on these different stages?

[20:24] Andrea Clatworthy  Not really. 

[20:26] Shahin Hoda  So it's consistent across.

[20:29] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah. You might wanna change the story slightly. If you're gonna follow a model that, you know, kind of goes epiphany awareness, decision purchase. Well, actually, because where the customer is, they've already made a decision, yeah, to purchase. But what you need to do is persuade them to choose you. You could, you could devise a content journey that starts with why. What great looks like for the customer in the future, and then perhaps a whole load of references.So that's one way to think about doing it. I think some the, the big differences are the closer you move towards decision, the, you'll typically have a lot more direct communication between the pursuit team and the customer. So you'd be thinking about what does that look like when they physically do that?

[21:21] Andrea Clatworthy  How, what communication materials are they using? So, do you create, and you probably, the answer is probably yes. Some consistent branded PowerPoint templates, for example, or some nice leave behind or, or something like that. So really, really tactical, tangible stuff, but to ensure that you are delivering the same, consistent story at every single checkpoint. What does the RFP response look like? Are you being consistent in the language that you're using, in the imagery that you're using? The visual identity you've chosen to put together for this DBM? So think about that. 

[22:03] Andrea Clatworthy  So, some of the key differences between DBM and mass marketing is that for DBM, you're probably marketing to, I don't know, 20 people, how many people are in decision making in it. It's between five and 20. So you're not doing mass stuff. So you can give yourself permission to create things, especially for those people, which means that you're probably not going to be doing broadcast advertising at that point because you wanna land this message, a very specific message around what it is they're trying to buy with those particular people. So you probably wouldn't be doing mass stuff at that point. Does that make sense? 

[22:38] Shahin Hoda  It does. It does. And I'm curious, Andrea. How deep have you gone with personalisation with DBM? Now, I understand some, just like you said, some situations maybe it's a little bit trickier, especially with government and organisations who are like, don't market to me. But how in situations that hasn't been the case? I'm super curious, like, hearing examples or that you've gone. All the way in on personalisation. What comes to mind? 

[23:03] Andrea Clatworthy  I've got a couple to share actually. So, both are a few years old, so I'm not breaking any commercial confidence.  

[23:21] Shahin Hoda  sounds good. 

[23:22] Andrea Clatworthy  There was a particular person in an organisation that was very senior and we just couldn't get to them because they were that senior where they live was a public record. So I worked out how they physically got to the office. So what was their journey? And they worked in central London. Everyone gets public transport in central London, especially, where their office was based. So I worked out the route that they would've taken. And they opt, if you commute, when you get to the tube station, you have an optimal route that you take for the tube station because typically there's multiple exits, there's multiple escalators, and there's multiple opportunities to advertise. 

[24:03] Andrea Clatworthy  So I just talked about not broadcasting, but in this particular example, the only way I could get to them was by advertising, uh, alongside the escalator that I knew they would get because that was the optimal route from the train to, to the exit and then to their office. So that's like extreme stalking, right? So that's one. It's not, could be careful. Extreme stalking, but, seems to work in that. 

[24:28] Shahin Hoda   So, did you have like ads up right there? And what would the, were the ads were just saying, you know, like, Fujitsu and this is like the vision and, and it was part of the story? Or was it even more direct and be like, we're trying to reach you, pick up the phone or something like that?

[24:46] Andrea Clatworthy  Oh no, it was definitely, it was part of the story. 

[24:48] Shahin Hoda   Yeah. Okay, got it. 

[24:50] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It had to be. So, that was a stalking version for somebody we couldn't get to. Completely different scenario, somebody that we knew very well. Existing customer, but they didn't like us and had said, this is in a renewal scenario, they had said, there is no way I'm renewing with Fujitsu, right? So there's a clear message there that that person is a detractor, you know. However you want, whatever else you wanna label it, detractor. And they're a key decision maker. So we knew we had to change their perception of us with that person so that they would choose us. And we wanted them to have a positive opinion of us. So we worked really hard to create a narrative, especially for that person, but then multiple engagement opportunities for that person to tell their story enabled by us.

[25:46] Andrea Clatworthy   So we knew that that person was very proud of the work they'd done. They had a little bit of an ego, not a massive one, but enough of an ego. That they will be happy to take the public stage, if you like. And we work with them, uh, on a number of things so that we could enable that person to tell their story. So I'm using careful language here cause I don't want to declare who it is. So, for instance, in Europe, the FT, Financial Times is a big publication. We managed to get, uh, an interview with the FT for that person. So they're, they're in print, right? 

[26:23] Andrea Clatworthy   We helped them or did it for them. Enter a whole load of awards so that, and through that story, right, we we're telling their story, but we're telling the story of us helping them. So we are back to that case study example I was talking about before. We are reminding them of the great work that we've done in the past. And we are saying to them through this process, we really value you so much that we are willing to go the extra mile so that your profile is heightened in the market. So tons of stuff like that. So personalised, so bespoke just for that person. And it worked. You know, it wasn't a quick fix it, it took more than a week and it worked. So that person is an advocate. We achieved the renewal. We got a very happy customer.

[27:11] Shahin Hoda   I feel like Fujitsu became the personal PR agency for that. 

[27:17] Andrea Clatworthy   Yeah. 

[27:18] Shahin Hoda   I love it. I love it. And Andrea, some people who are listening for their reference, what is the, and I'm not asking specifically for this situation, but can you give a little bit of context in terms of like what is the average contract side of Fujitsu's deals? I know some of them are public and it's available, but just for people to have context and we can talk about ranges whatever we're comfortable with. What are we talking about in terms of like looking at these deals that allow for something like this to be possible? 

[27:53] Andrea Clatworthy   Yeah, that's a great question. It's back to the commercial bit, right? So typically between five and 200 million. 

[28:01] Shahin Hoda   Got it. Got it. And I think that that, like, really succinctly creates the perspective of what we're talking about in

[28:11] Andrea Clatworthy   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if a deal is smaller, then any money you spend part of the buying process will erode your margin significantly. So you do need to make those judgement calls. 

[28:25] Shahin Hoda   Absolutely. 

[28:26] Andrea Clatworthy   People often ask me, well, so how much should you spend? It depends, right? It depends what you need to do. So if it talks about that scenario I was just talking about, to change perception for one person, that didn't really cost anything, but it costs us a lot of effort, you know? So there are things you can do that don't cost a lot. If you need to create a ton of content that's gonna cost. So you need to think very carefully on how much you wanna spend. If you need to specifically, I don't know, sponsor, an exhibition or a conference or something that's gonna cost you a ton of money, right? 

[28:55] Andrea Clatworthy  So back to that example before, leveraging what you've already got is a good thing. There is a rule of thumb that I've seen somewhere. It's not a point, not 1% of the contract value. You can use a benchmark figure if you like. Personally, it's about, I think it's building bottom up. What do we need to do? What are the objectives? And therefore, what's our suggested marketing communications plan to achieve those objectives and how much do we wanna spend on it? 

[29:25] Shahin Hoda  Got it. So did you say, the rule of thumb that you've heard is 0.01%? 

[29:31] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah, I don't believe that

[29:35] Shahin Hoda  That sounds small. That sounds very, of a deal. 

[29:41] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah. Well, if it's a 200 million pound deal, then that's a size, that's a, you know, so that's a meaningful amount, isn't it? 

[29:46] Shahin Hoda  Correct. 

[29:48] Andrea Clatworthy  But if it's a 5 million deal, then bit tight. 

[29:52] Shahin Hoda  It's a bit tight, doesn't it?

[29:55] Andrea Clatworthy  Yeah. Yeah. This is about you.How much money does it cost to do something meaningful? 

[29:58] Shahin Hoda  Mm. Absolutely. And, I think it also depends on the business model. If you're in the services space, you have different profit margins versus, you know, if you're in a SaaS space and you're selling, you know, licences and, and so on and so forth. So that creates great context. Andrea, we've covered a whole range of stuff. We talked about definitions of where to use and not to use DBM, talked about examples and tactics. I have some rapid fire questions that I wanna ask you, but before I do, is there anything else that you think we should cover that you, you, you think maybe I didn't ask? Very crucial with regards to deal-based marketing that we didn't touch on? 

[30:37] Andrea Clatworthy  I think one of the things is about having the relationship and working closely with the pursuit team. So it's really important that the marketer isn't seen as the bag carrier. That the marketer has a place at the table. They are the marketer. They are the marketing experts, you know. And what they're not there to do is to pander to every marketing whim of the pursuit team. The pursuit team might have a view, which is great, but they're experts in selling. Marketer is the expert in marketing. So I think being able to position correctly and having the right relationship with that team is really important. So people say, oh, how'd you do that? Well, it's about how you position at the start of the process. 

[31:20] Andrea Clatworthy  And then it's about the cadence that you put in, in terms of, you know, having a regular Friday call, I don't know, whatever it is, but the marketer being part of that selling process properly and not being an add-on on the side. Oh yeah, we need some penned PowerPoints and parties. No, you don't. This is a strategic approach. This is about creating a narrative. This is about changing or moving the dial on those decision maker units, decision maker's perception of you so that they choose you. And that's, although you end up doing a ton of tactics to achieve that, it's a strategic approach that that relationship with human beings internally is really important.

[31:58] Shahin Hoda  Andrea, that creates another question in my mind. If a marketer is getting involved and doing deal waste marketing, what do you think is that really critical that the marketer needs to have? Because marketers come from different backgrounds, right? They come from, some of them are technical, some of them copywriter and comms, some come from strategy. What do you think is that number one or the two most critical skills that a marketer who is working on a DBM needs to have to? And if they don't, it's very risky and it's going to be an uphill battle. 

[32:40] Andrea Clatworthy  I think some of it's around asking the right questions. And the question could be as simple as, do we know the decision makers? And quite often I've asked that question and the team will kind of look at me like, well, how can you ask such a hard question? Well, it's a genuine one, and you are gonna make them think in that scenario. If they, if kind of the, you know, you get a puzzled face and, and the answer is actually, it's a good point we don't. Then you've instantly proven value just by asking that question. Yeah. And then you work and then you say, well, what are we gonna do about it? And you might work on that together, and that's okay, but it's asking those hard questions. 

[33:21] Andrea Clatworthy  Another good question is, do we understand why the customers choose to buy what they want? And if we don't, then we need to work that out so that we can create the right narrative.

[33:33] Shahin Hoda  I appreciate that. Okay, let's do some rapid fire questions. Okay, so the first question that I want to ask is what is one resource, it could be a book, a blog, a video, a podcast, whatever it is that has had a profound and fundamental impact on the way that you work or you live? 

[34:30] Andrea Clatworthy  There's a really good book. This is a work context book by an author who's fantastic, called Bev Burgess. And Bev Burgess, she's written three books, I think now. And there's a good book called, I've got it here actually, 'The Practitioner's Guide to Account Based Marketing’ and it's in 2nd edition, and it's terrific. It's written as a practitioner's guide. And I do ping and out of this book frequently, and I also, I recommend it quite a lot and I've had lots of salespeople read it because they, if they wanna understand ABM so that they can better make use of it, which is great. So when you've got your sellers, your salespeople embracing the context of account-based marketing, or deal-based marketing in this context, then you're in heaven, really. Though, I recommend that book. So Bev Burgess, a Practitioner's Guide to Account-Based Marketing.

[35:23] Shahin Hoda  Bev's content is great and

[35:25] Andrea Clatworthy  Oh, she's so perfect. 

[35:27] Shahin Hoda  I know she's just  released her new book and, you know, actually it just arrived today for me. So, Account-based Growth. Oh, there we go.  You got it somewhere as well. 

[35:41] Andrea Clatworthy  There we go. That one. 

[35:43] Shahin Hoda  Yeah. I love it.Love it. So I'm looking forward to go through that during the break. Thanks for that. Okay, question number two is if you could give one advice to B2B marketers, what would that be? 

[35:54] Andrea Clatworthy  Learn the language of sales. 

[35:57] Shahin Hoda  I love how it's short and succinct. Question number three, who are some of the influencers, I mean, we talked about Bev, but who are some of the influencers that you follow in the sales and marketing space?

[36:10] Andrea Clatworthy  So, there's a group called AKAM, Association of Key Account Managers. And I get involved with them now and then, but they have some good thinkers. You notice that's about key account management. So that's selling basically. But managing the relationship with your customer and ABM is about managing your relationship with your customer. So there's some really strong similarities though I recommend, you know, if anyone else is thinking about who you are, or where I get my sales knowledge from, they're a good place to go to. So a great resource I think for anyone is the, is the agency and supplier ecosystem. Some great thought leadership coming out from agencies. I'm sharing best practice, case studies, et cetera, a really good place to go. I'm really lucky that, um, for the last few years I've been a judge for the B2B Marketing Awards. So, but you get to see some great content that people are so proud of that they've submitted it for an award. So very lucky in that regard. 

[37:12] Shahin Hoda  Love it. I love it. Last question is, what is something that excites you about B2B today?

[37:19] Andrea Clatworthy  I'm really excited about the concept of using things like AI in the future. I think there's some awesome opportunities, especially when we're thinking about data driven. Artificial intelligence has got a role to play. And if we get that right and the AI's telling us next best action or creating some content or whatever it may be that you want the outcome to be, that means as marketers, we've got more time to think strategically, to be creative, and worry a bit less about those things that just need to, you know, turn the handle on.

[37:52] Andrea Clatworthy So I'm really excited about that. I'm also really excited and encouraged that B2B marketing is starting to give itself permission to be less boring, to be less formal, to recognize that although we call it business to business, it's still human being to human being. So recognizing that people have got emotions and biases and needs, and being able to respond to those still in a B2B context because they're buying on behalf of their company, but, but bringing some of that B2C stuff, if you like, into the B2B world.

[38:27] Shahin Hoda  Andrea, this has been an awesome conversation, and I just wanna say thank you for coming on the podcast. I've learned tons from just this conversation that we've had. So, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are gonna feel the same thing. So thank you so much for your time and thanks for coming on the podcast.

[38:45] Andrea Clatworthy Thanks very much for having me.