Podcast: Mistakes B2B Founders Need to Avoid

Subscribe to the Growth Colony Podcast on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon | Pocket Casts

Episode topic: Mistakes B2B Founders Need to Avoid 

In this episode, host Shahin Hoda chats with Nick Bell, founder of 12 digital marketing agencies and co-founder at Lisnic.com, about the mistakes B2B founders need to avoid.  

Nick starts by sharing his thought process for buying into a business and advises prospective founders to solve a problem by creating convenience. He also talks about the importance of having a solid marketing strategy and having the right people to run a company successfully. Nick closes the discussion by emphasising how having mentors can increase the growth rate - both personal and professional of any B2B founder.

This episode’s guest:

• [02:19] Look for an industry where you can create convenience
• [04:00] Top 3 things that businesses need to be successful
• [04:18] Have a clear path to profitability (marketing strategy)
• [04:36] Launch your product or service and refine it later 
• [05:08] Hire the right people and gain their loyalty
• [05:53] Deliver what you promise
• [06:40] 100 leads are more valuable than 100 cold calls!
• [07:23] About BHAGs - Big Hairy Audacious Goals
• [11:50] Work with people you like
• [15:11] Don’t let ego and stress overwhelm you and make an irrational human being
• [16:55] The importance of mentors
• [21:15] More contacts equals more contracts
• [22:49] Go all in to find talent!
• [24:40] Advise for B2B Founders - Be on LinkedIn

Resources mentioned on this episode:

• About Lisnic.com
• About xGrowth
• About BHAGs - Big Hairy Audacious Goals
• Tools for Titans - by Tim Ferris - Book recommended by Nick
• Peter Thiel - Influencer quoted by Nick
• Elon Musk - Influencer followed by Nick
• Dr David Sinclair- Influencer followed by Nick
• Grant Cardone - Influencer quoted by Nick

About the Growth Colony Podcast

On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.

Hosted by Shahin Hoda & Alexander Hipwell, from xGrowth

Get in touch!

We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

Episode Full Transcript:

[00:40] Shahin Hoda  Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode. I'm Shahin Hoda with xGrowth. And today, I'm talking to the man, the myth, the legend Nick Bell, founder of multiple digital agencies across the world with some 1800 employees, and more recently, co-founder of Lisnic, a platform that helps you find the right mentors to smash your business goals. And we're going to be talking about a number of B2B topics relevant to founders and CEOs out there. Topics from identifying trends in the B2B space, picking and finding the right people for your team, and mistakes B2B founders commonly make On that note, let's dive in. Nick, thanks for joining us. 

[01:19] Nick Bell  Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. And what an intro man, the myth, the legend that hasn't been called out before, but thank you.

[01:25] Shahin Hoda  Well, you know, I have to be the first, right? I had to take that one. But look, Nick, I really want to first start talking about identifying trends. We touched on this a little bit earlier, when you're talking about you know, contact list solutions that are coming out in the market. And you have quite extensive experience in the B2B space. I mean, multiple digital agencies, I know that the first digital agency that you started was kind of you stumbled across it, and you fell into it. But after that, and observing you, I feel like you are a lot more methodical in terms of what you find and how you find these organisations that are a lot of them are B2B. So my question is, how do you decide how you get into a B2B venture today? 

[02:14] Nick Bell  Oh, this was a couple of parts of this question. I think the question was trends. And I said, first of all, look at an industry that needs to be disrupted. A perfect example is Uber in the taxi industry. So before Uber, to get a taxi, you call up, for example, 1300 cabs, I believe that number is and then you'd wait to say half an hour to 45 minutes for a cab, you couldn't track where it was, you'd call back and say, where's my cab right now? It's on its way. And then Uber released this app. Basically, you can see exactly where the Uber is, where they are, how long it's gonna take? Is it four minutes, five minutes, is it eight minutes? Completely disrupted the industry, and it needed to be disrupted. It was clunky, previously. Now it's obviously a lot more convenient.  

[02:55] Nick Bell  I think, first of all, look for an industry where you can create convenience for the business. So if you're going to solve a problem or create convenience, then that's a great start. So for my first business, which is the digital marketing agency that I started from my bedroom, I went into an industry where everyone was overcharging for their delivery. They were charging five to $10,000 a month retainers, but delivering $400 worth of value.  

[03:20] Nick Bell  And they weren't given any KPIs or guarantees, I said, That's fucking crazy. I said, these guys are just getting spoiled. So I came in, offering KPIs and guarantees and undercut everyone, like, it wasn't hard, like, I didn't have to develop a wholesome solution. So now I'll guarantee it, I'll do this. If you don't know, you stop paying me. I literally, it's all an idea. So look for an industry that needs to be disrupted, or unique because are you creating convenience? And are you solving a problem? And then from there, build a business? 

[03:49] Shahin Hoda  Interesting, okay. And what are some of the, you know, when you're starting your businesses, or when you observe a business from an external perspective, what are some of the key factors like if you wanted to say the top three things that have to that business needs to get right, in order for it to grow, in order for you to get excited about it? And whatever it is, but in order for it to be successful?  

[04:15] Nick Bell  Yeah.  

[04:15] Shahin Hoda  What do you think those three things are?  

[04:17] Nick Bell  Okay, first of all, show me your marketing strategy. Because without the business in the door, there is no company. So show me how you generate revenue for the company. That's for me, number one. And yes, you can fulfil it and make sure we have a strong back end. But if you don't have a clear path to profitability, then what's the point? Too many business owners refine, refine, refine their service or their product before they launch it. At the end of the day, if it's good enough, launch it and refine it as you go, but it's never going to be perfect. Just get some money in the door so you don't have to raise money, raise series A, Series B, Series C. You don't have to keep raising, you want to make revenue as quickly as possible.  

[04:57] Nick Bell  So you don't have to give away equity to private equity firms or venture capitalists, you can give yourself and grow a big business. So first of all, marketing, absolutely critical. Two, the people you hire. Don't hire bums on seats. Hire absolutely talented people. I know that's tough right now with the market the way it is where everyone is looking for the best talent, and everyone's paying top dollar. So how do you win the best talent without basically giving away your life savings? Well, at the moment, you need to provide a very good culture. Maybe you give profit sharing, I don't know.  

[05:30] Nick Bell  But like you don't even give away equity if you don't have to. I'd rather give away a profit share, or a bonus structure, than giving away equity to a business because that equity may be worth $100 million in 10 years where you could have given them a profit share and given away $500,000. What's your preference? So first of all, marketing, people and lastly, make sure you can deliver on what your promise. So if you say I can do XYZ, make sure you do XYZ. Because if you promised XYZ to deliver ABC, then the clients burned, they're gonna cancel it and blah, blah, you finished. So if you bring business in the door, have great people and deliver what you promise. You're gonna build a good business. It's going to be profitable. 

[06:14] Shahin Hoda  Let me ask you about the first point, you said marketing. And it's funny that you said marketing, you have a sales background, right? And a lot of people would say, you know, you have to get your sales, right. Why did you specifically say marketing there? 

[06:28] Nick Bell  Well, it really depends on what you're selling, whether it's a service or product. But for us, we generate leads for our sales teams. It's more, I say it's it's more efficient to generate leads and have them cold calling 100 people a day, and basically getting told no 100 times a day, I'd rather give you 100 leads per day, and you're closing 20% of those leads, which is 20 deals, generating $100,000. So I'm all about how I can deliver the most amount of leads to my sales teams, so they can generate revenue for the company.  

[07:00] Nick Bell  That's how I can scale quicker rather than cold calling and cold calling cold-calling, and maybe closing one or one or two deals a month. It's just not efficient. To me, time is more valuable in my How do I get to $50 million in revenue in two years, rather than 10 years. There's a quote by Peter Thiel, who is the founder of PayPal, and one of the founding investors in Facebook. He said, What's your 20? b hag, which is like what's your big, hairy, audacious goal in 10 years, if you say $100 million in revenue or 1000 staff what it might be, he asked the question. So what's stopping you from doing that in six months? 

[07:38] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, I've heard that one. That's, that's 

[07:40] Nick Bell  Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. And then that's actually been in the back of my mind lately. So I've got a target for a new business I'm launching. How can I do it in three years, rather than nine years? So I'm thinking, I'm working backwards. I need to build these networks. I need to meet these people. I need to bring on these people and so on. So you work backwards. And that's I think it's a very thought-provoking comment, isn't it? 

[08:04] Shahin Hoda  It is a slap in the face.  

[08:06] Nick Bell  100% and completely true. How do you get goals? x amount, how do you do it in a third of the time? What's stopping you? 

[08:14] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, it's one of the things I love about that question. It's one of those questions that makes you just lean back and be like, huh, 

[08:20] Nick Bell  Yeah. And funny. I literally went, shit. That's actually a very good point. So I had an agency that I sold three, four years ago. Yeah, so I sold it for X amount. And I'm thinking it took me nine years to do that. So how can I do that again, in 18 months? This is what I'm thinking. This is the plan? How can I do exactly the same? I'm not going to sell it. But how do I get to the same amount of revenue and growth and client happiness in life? Only absolutely special like in terms of client retention, new business, how can I do it in 18 months? So I've been working backwards to do that. So yeah, I need to, this is this. I need to achieve this many sales, this many leads, this contact average deal size, happy service offering minimum client retention. How do I maximise client happiness and so on?  

[09:11] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. 

[09:11] Nick Bell  Yeah. 

[09:12] Shahin Hoda  Let me ask you this, one of the things that you say is that you love starting new projects, right? You might not be a big fan of getting into the details and running them. But you do love the initiation process and creating something from nothing. How do you stay on top of things, when exactly what you're talking about? Right? Because what were you saying, you're getting into a lot of details, right? How do you do that? And how do you not get bored is not the right word. But you don't, because this happens quite often you see the next shiny thing and you're like, oh, on that now, how do you keep that momentum for some of these projects? 

[09:52] Nick Bell  Yeah, that's a good question. That's where I'm actually struggling a little bit at the moment. I think it's very easy to do if you've got three or four businesses but we're at 12 different businesses and trying to have your input annually involved in each business day today is impossible. You just can't physically do it. There are not enough hours in the day. So it comes down to the people that you have the drive in these businesses or companies. So we have, I think we've got a very strong management team. So my GMs report back to me weekly, we have a weekly management team meeting.  

[10:20] Nick Bell  So and they tell me about the numbers, p&l, conversion rates, retention rates, everything, it's very high level, but it's very hard for me to be involved day-to-day running a business in Singapore, or in Hong Kong or the US, it just you can't do it. So I am stretched for the time at the moment, and I am launching a new project such as Lisnic. So I have been working on listening after hours. So last night, I finished, actually midnight, trying to do that project. So it's challenging, but you just need good people around you. Like there's an old saying, I think it was Steve Jobs. If you, is it Steve Jobs? Maybe someone else. If you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room. And I know my strengths. And I know I got a lot of weaknesses. And I'm very good at bringing people together and building networks and building connections and having great people work together. But I'm not the best salesperson or the best technician. I'm not the best marketer, but I try and hire the best and bring it together.  

[11:12] Shahin Hoda  How do you do that Nick? How do you? I feel like that's definitely one of your strengths. You talk about how you would bring somebody into the organisation that would work with you for a year, you know, and they would go out and start a new agency in a different country. You've multiple times talked about the importance of people. I mean, we talked about right here. Yeah. How do you find these people? Like how do you look is do you think there is something, there's a mind shift or mindset piece that the way you think about people that it's different from the average Joe that runs a business, 

[11:50] Nick Bell  I'm at a stage where I like to work with people that I enjoy working with, if you're going to asshole, we're not going to work well together. If we just don't gel or connect, we're not the right fit. So it's best to work somewhere else. So the people that stay within the business long term, whether they're techies or the salespeople or marketers, we generally have a common bond, and we connect and we treat each other with respect. And in a day, don't be an asshole to people. Just be nice. Ask about their family, ask about their kids. If they're sick, how are you? So my financial controller sick in Singapore and say, I sent her a text, are you okay? Is anything we can help with? 

[12:28] Nick Bell  Just something small like that people respond well to that. Because they are, the MD cares about me. He actually cares about my family or cares about my well being. So just treat people with respect and make sure you offer career progression. So if you've got a position a person in the same position for four years, what's the chance that they're going to get bored, like nine times out of 10, they get bored, so he needs to give them progression? Otherwise, they're gonna go somewhere else. So we're the outcome because we're growing so fast. There's an opportunity to move in different companies, or different positions almost daily with us.  

[13:00] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. Interesting. So do you think that's the, is that the secret sauce of keeping good people? I mean, attracting? How do you find them in the first place?  

[13:10] Nick Bell  I think, first of all, you got to build loyalty with people. Yeah, you got to become friends with them, and they become loyal to you. Pay them well, build a good culture, and give them career progression. If you actually just nailed those basic, basic fundamentals, you're gonna fuckin retain people. If you're cracking the whip and say, you're one minute late today, how dare you, get to work and micromanaging people, you just cannot do that in this market. You cannot do it. Because there is so many good opportunities out there right now that another organisation will say now, we don't operate like that. You can come work for us, and we'll pay you more money and treat you like a human being will treat you with respect rather than a dictatorship. Like it's pretty simple, yeah? 

[13:53] Shahin Hoda  Yeah. Yeah.  

[13:54] Nick Bell  I think the old way of managing people and I hate to say like, I'm not gonna name names, but back in the '70s, '80s, '90s, where the boss' ivory tower on top of the building, looking down on his employees or her employees, that shit doesn't work anymore. Like I sit with my guys in the middle of the floor, my desks, like their desk, and I'm in the trenches with the guys and me, we talk, I answer questions, I can hear the conversations, which means I can help train them. We're all just the same. Like yes, we got a lot of people but there's a very flat hierarchy in our organisation. There's not layers and layers of management. Like the intern can shoot me a message saying, So Nick, got a question. You can help me. yeah, absolutely.  

[14:33] Shahin Hoda Love it. Love it.  

[14:35] Nick Bell  It's the way it should be. I think it's I think the markets heading that way. I think the ivory tower way of managing think that's gonna die slowly. Because if you're, if you're managing like that, you're gonna lose talent. So you have to evolve after. 

[14:47] Shahin Hoda  What are some of the other mistakes that you see kind of founders make? So we've talked about, we've talked about not treating people, right, we've talked about maybe not getting your marketing sorry, what are some of the other mistakes that you see quite often, when you know, when you're dealing with colleagues or dealing with even your GM make mistakes or externally, 

[15:07] Nick Bell  Everyone's gonna make mistakes, I make mistakes, I think the first thing is people panic. And they get stressed. And in that stress, they make irrational decisions. So I think sometimes take a step back, relax, don't let age or stress or anger, determine your decision. And I say it all the time. I've had a mate of mine, I'm not connected with his business, but he had a falling out with one of his employees. And he's like fuck the employee fuck him. Mate, just take a step back, breathe, sleep on it tonight, before you email him. I said I wouldn't even email, give him a call and just told him like a normal human being. He's like, nah, I'm gonna go to the court with this guy.  

[15:48] Nick Bell  I said, that's just silly and I'll tell you who's gonna win if you go to court, the lawyers. You're not going to win, he's not going to win, just take a step back, relax, and give him a call him away. And immediately just find a resolution. And thankfully, he took my advice on and the next morning, had a chat, he got resolved in 10 minutes. All done, the employee was happy, he was way happy or down, but it could have gone could have gone down a different path. If he went back to that person with ego and anger and stress. So I think, first of all, don't panic. Be very careful with decisions. But once you make the decision, go all for it go in, if you're in you're in. If the wrong decision, put the handbrake on quickly and fix it quickly. Don't keep pushing through with it.  

[16:33] Shahin Hoda  Good point. I want to talk about external help them, right. And in your in the process of growing w me you know even currently running the businesses they do as they're been has there been situations or experiences where you would reach out for external help? 

[16:52] Nick Bell  For a long time, actually. So, I had in the early days of WME, I didn't have a mentor or I didn't ask for help. And I thought I knew more than I actually did. But the thing is, you don't know what you don't know the old saying. And I realised I didn't know a lot in about five years ago, I found a mentor by chance. And that mentor helped me in business and in my personal life. And I found a second mentor for a different part of my life. So now I have different mentors for different things. I'm going to mentor for my property interest and mentor for people and culture, mentor for my tech side of my company. And I ask these guys questions all the time. I'm a massive hole when it comes to information like, can you answer this question for me?  

[17:34] Nick Bell  I can, I'm happy to help myself out and silly. I just want to learn from you guys, because you guys are much stronger in this area than me. With one thing. I'm not trying to be arrogant here but when it comes to business, I'm not ego-driven. I know I don't know a lot. So I want to talk I want to learn from other people. It doesn't need to be the founder of Netflix. I can learn from anyone that's on the same level or better than me. If someone's got a business of revenue of $100,000. And on that 100 million dollars, I'm probably not gonna learn from that person.  

[18:02] Nick Bell  But if someone's same level or greater, I'm probably gonna learn from them. Because they've been through it, they've done it. Mentors, are not genuinely smarter than you, they've just got more experience. It's 100% experience and I would have had, I would have made a lot fewer mistakes if I had a mentor at WME. I made a lot of mistakes. And I think I've got to fast track my growth by at least a third. At least, if I had a mentor when I listened to him or her. But I was like, no, no, I could do it myself. I was an idiot. When I found a mentor five years ago, my wealth grew substantially, I became a better husband and a better father. And If I had that previously, I could have fast track my life in my career. I'm all for mentors. And that's why I'm wanting to sneak.

[18:42] Shahin Hoda  Nick Bell  Yeah, which is my next question. 

[18:44] Nick Bell  Mentors are game-changer. I had dinner with one of them last night. Why don't you call them mentors? I call them good friends that give me great advice. But the reality, is they're a mentor. And in a day, I want to learn from as many people as possible because listening to an audiobook is great, or listening to a podcast is fantastic. But it's not personalised information. Where I might have a current situation that I need help with that situation whereas a podcast can't give you that. It's generic information. So if I'm in a binder, I'm about to do an investment, or expanding company might just say my mentor is David, for example. David, this is a situation, what are your thoughts? How would you handle it? And what do you recommend? And then he would then give his advice around it. And it's my choice to where I take that advice on board. But generally, it's pretty good advice. 

[19:38] Shahin Hoda  Got it. Got it. And how do you manage the relationship between yourself and a mentor or you know, a friend, you know, do you personally right, because there are a lot of mentors who would you know, do it for maybe a fee. There are some people who would do it out of the kindness of their heart. Now, how do you manage your relationship with your mentor? 

[20:00] Nick Bell  All these mentors are friends of mine. So I don't pay them a fee, but I refer them a lot of business. 

[20:09] Shahin Hoda  Right 

[20:10] Nick Bell  So in reality is yes, I'm not paying them a fee like $1,000 for their mentorship. But I'm referring to them actually referred one of them about a $500,000 contract. So I think that's why I said that pay forward, do something nice to someone. And in return, there may be benefits and this is what's happening. But I would happily pay them to pay them a lot of money because I pay them whatever they wanted to advise me because if I pay $1,000 good chance I can make $100,000 from it. The rewards are endless. 

[20:40] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, one good piece of information. And it changes the game, right 

[20:44] Nick Bell  Example, when I was going through the acquisition for year ago when my company was being acquired ASX listed company, one of my mentors had been acquired by the same company. And yeah, so I got some great information. And I made it an extra $15 million out of the sale.  

[21:02] Shahin Hoda  Oh wow

[21:03] Nick Bell  Yeah. And just from advice, and that's all it was. And he recommended a lawyer probably saved me another $70,000. So just things like that. And having mentors actually gives you the opportunity to their networks. Because you obviously meet them. And this is my friend, Nick. And then they open up their networks to you. So it's not just about advice, it's actually getting access to their networks as well. People underestimate the value of a strong network. It is so important. What's Grant Cardone's say? More contacts equal more contracts. 

[21:39] Nick Bell  Good. 

[21:41] Shahin Hoda  It's pretty good. Yeah, it does have these sayings, doesn't he? Like there's another thing that he says, weekends make you weak or something like that? 

[21:52] Nick Bell  Yes. And he always says, always show up. And I listened to one of his videos, I think back in November last year, and I listened to it. And I was like, he's actually right. If you're sick, I'm not talking like deathbeds secret I'm talking to you just unwell, got the flu, or you just can't be bothered, doesn't matter, you always show up. And that's gonna be my motto this year is always, always show up no matter if it's training like exercising, or work or meetings or a networking event always show up if I commit it and you've said yes, you got to be there. 

[22:27] Shahin Hoda  Gonna make it happen. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Okay. Before I move on, I have a few rapid questions I want to ask you, right. But before I do that, is there anything else around you know, kind of advice for B2B founders, finding trends, finding people, anything that maybe I didn't touch on that you think it will be? It'll be valuable for us to talk about? 

[22:46] Nick Bell  If you're trying to find talent right now, use every avenue possible. So that means posting on job boards. And I'm talking every job board, using LinkedIn to find talent if you need to use recruiters, but you have to be super clever with how you're recruiting talent right now, especially tech talent. Everyone wants to tell me as I said, we're recruiting hundreds of people right now. And it's just not us. I think companies are hiring as well. And whoever has the best offering and gets in first is going to get the talent. 

[23:18] Shahin Hoda  I hear you. I mean, yeah, we were a much smaller organisation, of course. And we're trying to hire and not happening. 

[23:28] Nick Bell  I've been on LinkedIn, bloody reaching out to people. Hey, I've got an opportunity for you. I like whatever it takes, you've got to get on there and just make it happen. 

[23:37] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, I hear ya. I hear ya. It's crazy. It's crazy. No, thank you very much for that. Okay, rapid questions. I got three of them. The first one is what is one resource, it could be a book, blog, podcast, talk, etc. that fundamentally changed the way you work or live. And you can't say losing my virginity by Rich Ben. 

[23:53] Nick Bell  I've got it. It's called Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss. I read that early late last year and there is so much gold out there. It's basically rituals of thought leaders, celebrities and the world's best business leaders.  

[24:09] Shahin Hoda  Did you read that back to back? Yeah, because that's a, you know,  

[24:13] Nick Bell  It's a meaty book but mate, it is full of gold! 

[24:17] Nick Bell  Really? I'm always intimidated by the thickness of that book and by his other books, to be honest, 

[24:24] Nick Bell  And listen to the audiobook on a fast track, fast forward. So again, Tools of Titans business and personal life game-changer.  

[24:33] Shahin Hoda  Number two, if you could give one piece of advice to B2B founders, what would it be? 

[24:37] Nick Bell  We've got a current business or they want to get into business. 

[24:39] Nick Bell  Now there they have a current business. 

[24:42] Nick Bell  B2B founders, make sure you're on LinkedIn. Be on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is it's free. It's easy to use, and most business leaders are on there. So you've got access to anyone instantly. 

[24:55] Shahin Hoda  Last one. What are some of the influences that you follow? 

[24:59] Nick Bell  Good questions. Well, actually been no one that really inspires me at the moment. I'm impressed by obviously Elon Musk is a usual suspect. Business leaders, I'm inspired by Dr David Sinclair. He's not a business leader. He's a longevity expert. As I mentioned to you before we jumped on this. Elon Musk because I think what he does is phenomenal. And Dr David Sinclair is around longevity and I want to live longer so I can do more business so kind of does relates. 

[25:22] Shahin Hoda  I love it. I love it.  

[25:25] Nick Bell  Business is your audience. If they come across any strong business leaders locally in Australia, man, I'd love to know. Because I'm not looking for fluffy contents like don't fear, fear you rah-rah-rah. I want to teach the stuff I need to know like I need to learn more about business like some golden nuggets, this is what I'm looking for. 

[25:43] Shahin Hoda  Why do you say that? Is that is that because you're having a hard time finding that in the Australian market? 

[25:49] Nick Bell  Yeah, I am, I'm struggling to find people here that actually taught real business advice. 

[25:54] Shahin Hoda  Why do you think that's the case? What are your thoughts? 

[25:57] Nick Bell  Maybe the strong business leaders aren't posting content? I don't know.  

[26:01] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, okay.  

[26:02] Nick Bell  I'm not saying the ones who are particularly strong but it's a little bit it's I know it has a market it's just not for me I'm looking for more business tangible advice that I can use in my businesses like Tools of Titans, I have a lot of gold out of that. 

[26:16] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, I think I've mustered up more energy and more strength now to go and have a look at Tools of Titans 

[26:23] Nick Bell  Just do it and change your life. 

[26:24] Shahin Hoda  I've looked at it before and I was like, but I'm gonna definitely check it out. Nick, thanks so much for jumping on. Really appreciate it. And I truly enjoyed the conversation. 

[26:35] Nick Bell  Excellent. Thanks, man. Really appreciate it, cheers dude.