How to start with your first Account-Based Marketing Campaign
In this episode, host Shahin Hoda and ABM expert Steve Watt discuss all things Account-Based Marketing and how to get started with ABM in your organisation.
Steve shares unique insights from his extensive career as an Account-Based Marketing practitioner, which will bring clarity into a practice with so many definitions. Join them while they review the key to avoid common mistakes and develop a successful campaign.
This episode’s guest:
Steve Watt, VP of Marketing at Grapevine6
Steve Watt is VP Marketing at Grapevine6, the enterprise social engagement platform trusted by many of North America’s largest banks, wealth management firms, insurance companies, and technology providers. Grapevine6 enables salespeople and financial services professionals to confidently grow their business on social media within brand guidelines and regulatory compliance.
Steve believes that many sales and marketing mindsets, strategies, metrics and tactics are beyond their “best before date”, and that B2B leaders need to reject many of the approaches that have gone unquestioned for too long.
Connect with him on LinkedIn
Conversation segments on this episode:
- [01:07] About Grapevine6 and the solution they offer
- [03:19] Steve's definition of Account-Based Marketing (ABM)
- [5:01] Three elements to have a truly distributed workforce
- [06:39] How ABM entered the B2B scene and why marketers should care about it
- [11:01] How to get started with ABM
- [17:52] Common mistakes when starting with ABM
- [24:41] Sales and Marketing as one team for ABM
- [29:58] Steve's articles and contribution to ABM content
Resources mentioned on this episode:
- Steve’s Podcast: The VP Marketing Show
- Online Account-Based Marketing course by Steve
- “Three Ways to Explain Account-Based Marketing”, by Steve
- “What exactly is ABM, and how do I communicate it within my organization?” by Steve
- ABM software: Demandbase, Terminus and Engagio
- About Sales Qualified Leads (SQLs) and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQL)
- FlipMyFunnel Podcast
- Sangram Vajre
- xGrowth's Account-Based Marketing guide
About the Growth Colony Podcast:
On this podcast you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.
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Episode Full Transcript:
[00:24] Shahin Hoda Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Growth Colony, Australia's B2B Marketing Podcast. My name is Shahin from xGrowth and today I'm joined by Steve Watt, the VP of Marketing of a company called Grapevine6. Now, today, we're going to be talking about ABM. And how should marketers start ABM if you're looking at starting your first account based marketing campaign? Where should you start and what kind of problems should you avoid? So on that note, Steve, thanks a lot for joining us on this episode.
[01:00] Steve Watt Shahin, thanks for having me. It's always been my pleasure to speak with you personally. And I'm glad we're now doing it with an audience.
[01:07] Steve Watt Well, it's always great to have you. I very much enjoy our conversations, but look for those who might not know yourself or the company, can you give us a quick brief about both of them?
[01:21] Steve Watt I'm pretty sure it's safe to say not too many people in Australia know me, or know the company. So yeah, happy to talk about that a little bit. And interestingly, I'm not with a company that sells ABM technology. I'm gonna put that right out there. I'm an ABM practitioner. I have been around the ABM space for a long time. And I use ABM in my company, but I'm not selling any ABM services.
[01:45] Steve Watt So I work for a company as you said, called Grapevine6. I lead the small marketing team there. We're about a 60 person SAS company. We're really focused on social engagement for financial services, professionals, and salespeople in some of North America's largest banks and insurance companies, and a few big tech companies as well.
[02:04] Steve Watt And the way I like to think about what we're solving for is that smart marketing leaders are figuring out that the total reach and impact, potential impact of all the employees in their company, absolutely dwarfs the reach and potential impact of their own channel, their company's advertising channels. But they're not doing a very good job of empowering people to get out there on LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter, and really advocate for themselves and for their business.
[02:43] Steve Watt And a lot of people are really held back. They don't know what to talk about on social. They're afraid of making a mistake. They're afraid of looking bad. In financial services, they're afraid of getting into regulatory compliance problems. So we set out to solve that problem with the right content for them, and compliance baked in brand compliance and also legal regulatory compliance. And as a result, these companies are able to really unleash their people to be awesome brand advocates for their own personal brand. And for the corporate brand is well..
[03:19] Shahin Hoda Amazing. Amazing. And you mentioned very, very humbly that, you know, people might not have heard of you, but as you said, you've been practicing ABM for a long time, Account Based Marketing. You've done courses on Account Based Marketing, you've run a podcast, which has a strong focus on Account Based Marketing, as well and have been in the space for a long time. And I'd love to, if somebody has been under the rock and haven't really heard about ABM or Account Based Marketing, my first question is, how would you define Account Based Marketing?
[03:59] Steve Watt That's a great question. There are so many definitions out there. And some of them run really, really long. So I try to really simplify it because I get asked that question a lot. My simple answer is it's multi-threaded, multi-channel, multi-touch, and highly targeted.
[04:14] Steve Watt And let me unpack that a little bit. Multi-threaded sales talk for the fact that we are not just going after one person, one lead, it's all about figuring out who are all the various stakeholders and influencers and potential roadblocks in this B2B deal that we're working on and getting multi-threaded getting engagement with all or as many as possible of the people who are going to participate in that deal in one way or another. So multithreaded is number one.
[04:43] Steve Watt Number two is multi-channel. It's not just about hitting the phones or hitting the email. It is across all channels. A really smart ABM play probably is using five, six even more different channels in harmony, really orchestrated online, offline. You know, digital real life, high touch, low touch, all kinds of channels all coming together. So that's the second thing.
[05:07] Steve Watt Multi-touch is the third thing. There's no silver bullet for ABM, there's no one piece of content. There's no one event. There's no one phone call, or one email that causes a large complex deal to happen. It just doesn't happen that way. It's about identifying champions and empowering that champion to advocate within the company and overcoming objections and pulling more people into it. So there's multiple touches all along the way.
[05:37] Steve Watt And when we, you know, I'm sure we're going to start talking about how ABM can go wrong, you know, over reliance on that magic bullet that's a super piece of content that's going to kick down the doors is a real problem. So we're multi-threaded, or multi-channel or multi-touch.
[05:52] Steve Watt And the fourth thing is we're highly targeted and we have to be highly targeted. Because nobody can afford it. Nobody can afford to do all those other things for thousands of accounts, you just don't have the time and you don't have the money. You don't have the people to do that. So in order to be multi-threaded and multi-channel and multi-touch, you've got to get highly targeted.
[06:14] Steve Watt So there's a really important foundational part of ABM, about really figuring out who your ideal accounting accounts are, and what are the characteristics of your ideal accounts? And then focusing everything on that much smaller universe instead of going after all, you know, the whole world or even a whole industry, you got to get much more targeted than that.
[06:39]Steve Watt Yeah, thank you for that definition. That's a very thorough and detailed definition. I love it. I guess the other question that I'd like to dig into is, why should marketers care about Account Based Marketing? I mean, there are a lot of marketers who are working with different things. They're, you know, they're doing some traditional demands generation or inbound marketing, especially in the B2B space? Why should they care about Account Based Marketing?
[07:09] Steve Watt In most cases, it's because that other stuff isn't very efficient and isn't very effective. And, you know, I like to take a bit of a historical perspective on that and say, Okay, let's think back over the last few decades. So B2B Marketing has always been about the funnel, right? It's always about, put a bunch of leads on the top of the funnel, and then nurture them and qualify them, and do various stuff and some money comes out the bottom, great.
[07:39] Steve Watt How do we grow while we put more leads in the top or we get better at our funnel throughput or both, and that's kind of been the game for decades. So SEO and SEM came along and put more leads in the top. Fantastic, that helped. And then a while later, marketing automation came along and helped us with throughput helped us to better nurture with, you know, workflows and cadences and everything so that we would get more output from the same amount of leads in the top. So I was good too.
[08:13] Steve Watt And then content came along, and it was like, wow, you know, we have great content that's going to help in both of these areas. more great content means we do better in SEO and and we're more findable in more ways. So that puts more leads in the top, but content also fuels our marketing automation. And now we can nurture instead of like bugging people, we can be nurturing people with valuable content. This is wonderful. And it worked, right.
[08:42] Steve Watt So the funnel kept getting more and more efficient. And then social media came along as like, wow, now we can engage with these people, you know, almost let's call it face to face in a very personal way in social media. This is fantastic. And this is going to help more leads. It's going to help more throughput, all of it. So all of these things have been coming together for 20 years, you would think that the result of all of that would be a really efficient and effective funnel.
[09:09] Steve Watt But then you actually look at the numbers for most companies and it's bleak. I mean, they have thousands of leads and thousands of MQLS and SQLs and whatever they choose to call that top of the funnel kind of activity. And they got whole teams of people demoing and working stuff. Yeah, a really small portion comes out at the bottom. So despite 20 years or more of process improvements and technological improvements, we still have a really inefficient funnel.
[09:39] Steve Watt So ABM people come along and say, well, maybe the problem is the funnel itself, maybe the the fundamental construct of putting a whole lot of leads in the top and squeezing some money out of the bottom, maybe the problems right there, and instead of working to make it a little more efficient, maybe we ought to just scrap that model. What if we flip that funnel upside down essentially. And what if we start by targeting on the right keys, start focusing on the right accounts, when we go through a real process to understand who our very, most ideal, excellent, potential customers, and then let's just focus everything there.
[10:22] Steve Watt All of our sales, focus, all of our marketing, focus, all of our spend everything, let's just focus on that much smaller universe. And as a result, we can make a much bigger impact on the people that matter most. And at the end of the day, we ought to be more efficient and more effective and those that have been pioneering this over the last number of years. Most of the time, that's exactly what's happened. They've been more efficient, they've been more effective. So it's just something that had to happen. You know, you can't keep squeezing a little more efficiency out of something until somebody comes along and says, wait, what if we just look at this entirely differently and not when ABM is.
[11:01] Shahin Hoda Right, basically, yeah, right becomes more efficient of not focusing on the number of leads that are coming in, but the quality of the leads that are coming in. And that's great. And everything that you mentioned, makes perfect sense. But it also sounds quite complex and there sounds like there are a lot of moving parts in there. The question that a lot of people would have is okay, cool, this is great, but where should I start? Where is that kind of practical first step that should take towards, kind of introducing ABM into the organization? What is your answer to that?
[11:45] Steve Watt I think if it's an existing company with an existing marketing team and marketing function, existing sales team, perhaps a sales development team, I'd really start with looking at the numbers today and validating. If what I just said, is actually true in your company, there's a very good likelihood it is true, there's a very good likelihood that there are a ton of website visitors who are not from companies that are in any way appropriate to you. And a ton of your social followers are never going to amount to anything.
[12:20] Steve Watt And you send a ton of emails and your open rates are bad and your click through rates are even worse. And your team is having a lot of conversations that don't go anywhere. And you're doing a lot of demos because people are requesting demos, but then you're qualifying them out. And, you know, just validate that what is true for a whole lot of companies is also true for you and it probably is, and that's just on the sales side and then look deeper into the company and look at your customers.
[12:56] Steve Watt Look at your churn rate if you're in SAS or anything with recurring revenue, look at who's referring to you and who isn't. And you probably would pretty quickly say, oh, we got some customers over here that are amazing. Like we love them, they love us. They are loyal. They tell all their friends about us, they advocate for us on social and they renew year after year and we grow with them. Why can't they all be like them?
[13:28] Steve Watt You know, why do we have this whole big bunch of customers over here who oh my god that the support tickets never end and the complaints never and and that it's always touching go whether we're going to renew them and and and they're never advocating for us? Why can't all our customers be like these other guys? So if you look into your company, and you see both of those things are true. Our presale operations are pretty inefficient. And our post sale operations have a lot to be desired in terms of why can't everyone be like our best?
[14:06] Steve Watt Well, now it's time to have a serious conversation about ABM and say, okay, well, maybe we could fix both of those things. Maybe we could get more efficient on the sales side by being more targeted. But also, once they do become our customers, if they're actually the right customers, if they're actually the right companies with the right problems that we solve, we don't just satisfy them, we delight them, we thrill them, then they're going to renew and they're going to grow and they're going to they're going to be a source of wonderful word of mouth for us.
[14:39] Steve Watt So I think that's the starting point is really stepping back and looking at the state of your business. And if this stuff is true, and if your contract value, your average sale price is high enough, and there's a lot of debate, like let's be clear, ABM does not work. If you sell $100 product. It's not going to be efficient. You need to be doing broad market demand gen.
[15:03] Steve Watt You know, some people say you need to have a contract value over $10,000 over $20,000. I've run successful profitable ABM on a $5,000 or $6,000 sale price. So, you know, as long as you're up somewhere into the thousands, and obviously many companies are into the hundreds of thousands or beyond, well, then ABM is probably going to be the right thing for you. But it's kind of got to start with that. Because that creates the foundation for sales and executives and customer success and everybody to lean in and say, yeah, maybe there's a better way.
[15:41] Steve Watt And it's because without that, if marketing just tries to go it on their own, there, it's just another marketing campaign. It's another buzzword. It's another thing that sales and everyone else is going to ignore, and you're not going to be successful. So really start with a cold hard luck at where you are today. And if the ground is ripe, fertile ground for ABM, as I said, then start pulling in your peers in sales and in customer success and in finance and other parts of the company and say, Look, if we put our heads together, I think we can find a better way.
[16:20] Shahin Hoda Gotcha. I think this is definitely a topic that I underestimated in the early days when we started doing ABM, right? Where it's very important to have a good understanding of the business, have alignment among the team, to make, to say, yes, ABM is the right thing, or at least at the beginning, say yes, this is not working. And really bringing everyone on the same page in order to give the green light to something like Account Based Marketing and you know, I definitely neglected this and I was like, give me the tactics, give me the sexy stuff, that stuff is boring.
[17:02] Shahin Hoda Why do I have to focus on that and people and change management? But very quickly, I realized how if you don't have change management, and if you don't really create that buy-in among the organization, your Account Based Marketing is doomed to fail from right at a gig.
[17:52] Shahin Hoda What are some of the mistakes that you've seen people make when they want to start with Account Based Marketing?
[18:29] Steve Watt How long do we have Shahin?
[18:31] Shahin Hoda Look, we have we have some time. Maybe not for all the mistakes but for some of those.
[18:37] Steve Watt Yeah, that is such you can or they say, you know, how can you go wrong? So, um, well, you can skip that stuff that we just talked about. That'd be one way of going wrong exactly, as you said, rushing into tactics and tools and like go go go look at me. I want to be in market in two weeks. That's going to be a mistake.
[19:00] Steve Watt I think another places is failing to get that alignment. So sort of the next step after that, you know, you do need, you can't go it alone as marketing you really, I mean, at an absolute minimum, you need strong alignment with the sales leadership and the sales team, and you need some executive headcover, right, like, you know, in a small to midsize company CEOs got to be on board in a, you know, giant company, maybe you don't need the CEO, but you know, senior people with responsibility for sales and marketing and revenue retention and these things, they've got to be on board, or else this just seems like a silly little thing that's happening in some corner of the business that everyone can just ignore, you know, so I'll set this one out.
[19:41] Steve Watt I'll wait till next quarter when they're, they're on about something else. So, you know, really that alignment is critical. Don't be superficial. That's another thing that you see sometimes people go like, oh, Account Based Marketing, right. Okay. Let's put some dynamic copy in the email. No subject lines that say, hey Shahin, I've got something for you. And then we're going to drop your company name into the body copy and we're going to start blasting those emails. Look at me I'm doing ABM because you know, I addressed you by name and I dropped your company name and, you know, maybe I even said, you know, a reference to your industry or something.
[20:20] Steve Watt Well, this kind of superficial surface level, personalization, hate even call it personalization adds no value to the buyer. It's just, it's just a cheap tactic to drop your name and your company name and see if I can catch your eye for a second, where there's no extra value. There's no extra traction, so don't be super professional.
[20:42] Steve Watt I think another thing is don't be tool centric. I've encountered this a lot with people. They're like, okay, Steve, we're going to do ABM. So what do we need to buy? Use Demandbase, Terminus, Engagio. You know, this tool, that tool whatever I need to buy to do ABM and you know, what I always say is you can't buy ABM, you have to build it. And building it is a lot of work. And don't run out and spend your financial capital but also your reputation capital within your firm.
[21:17] Steve Watt On software in the early days, you don't have a strategy yet, you don't have alignment, you don't have clarity on what you're doing, oh, but you got this great shiny tool, well, there's a really good chance that you're going to fail to get much value out of that tool. And you're probably going to regret that purchase. And you're probably also going to regret the couple of months you spent doing due diligence on all these different competitive tools when you didn't even know what you're doing yet.
[21:46] Steve Watt So you know, the old adage in startups is, you know, do things that don't scale. Well, you know, that's true for ABM, too, regardless of your company size. Don't do things that don't scale and in the early days, figure out your ideal account. Figure out what that really cut through value proposition and messaging is going to be. Figure out who are all the people you need to get out and get at them in using your existing tools. And you don't need purpose built ABM tools early on, figure out what works and what doesn't work. And once you've actually piloted it and found ways to really break through, well, now you start thinking about maybe I need some tools to scale this better and measure it better.
[22:31] Steve Watt So, you know, don't rush, don't be superficial, don't work in silos, as we said, don't focus on tools early on. And I think one more I'd call out is be really aware that your existing demand gen metrics might lead you astray. In ABM. I've seen this so many times. And what I mean by that is, let's say you're a typical software company or SAS company, or really many kinds have companies that's like, okay, we're all about, you know MQLs, SQLs and demos. And that's what we've been driving to for years.
[23:09] Steve Watt That's what we incentivise our marketing team and our sales team on while sales team ultimately on revenue by sales, development and marketing. It's all about MQLs SQL demos. So let's start doing ABM. Alright, so surely we're going to drive all kinds of those things, right? Well, the reality is, if you do a really smart job of targeting and ABM, you might have far fewer MQLs and fewer SQLs and you might do fewer demos. And that might be a really good thing.
[23:39] Steve Watt Because you're focused on the right people in the right accounts with the right value prop and the right supporting evidence. And you ought to have a way bigger win rate, a way like a higher win rate, a shorter sales cycle, a larger deal size and better customers at the end of it. So it's not about how many MQLs or how many demos, it's you're shifting from a quantity orientation to a quality orientation. And you might have to measure completely different things.
[24:13] Steve Watt I mean, or else you're going to call this a failure, you're going to say, why are we spending all this time and money on ABM? Yet our MQLs are down and our SQLs down and our demos are down. Well, obviously, this is a failure. Let's fire that marketing guy. And let's go back to what we were doing before. And you just, you just blew an opportunity, because you didn't think about the fact that maybe you need entirely different ABM metrics. So those are off the top of my head. Some of the ways that can go wrong.
[24:41] Steve Watt Gotcha. There is so much to unpack over there. And I don't think we have time for all of them. But one that I want to touch on is, you know, you said that, hey, add the minimum. You have to make sure that at least sales is on onboard right? What is the role of sales when it comes to Account Based Marketing? How is this? How is this different than traditional marketing and B2B where the marketing department is responsible for certain things? And then sales was responsible for certain things? Is it different in Account Based Marketing? And you know, if it is like, how is that different?
[25:20] Steve Watt Yeah, it's a lot different. I mean, you have to think of sales and marketing as partners. throughout every phase of this. And you're exactly right, that handoff that well, marketing creates leads and then, you know, tosses them over the fence to sales and sales closes them, that mindset is gone. Like it's got to go. You've got to say, look, from the very beginning to the very end. We are one team, we work together. And that's not just talk. That's not just let's all hold hands and be best friends, right? It's real serious work together.
[26:02] Steve Watt So it's sales and marketing together figuring out what are the objectives? I mean, are we going after new client acquisition here? Are we going after growing existing accounts? Are we going to take a whole bunch of existing pipeline deals that are kind of stuck and kind of slow? And we're going to try to get those across the finish line? Is it some combination of all of these? Is there going to be an industry focus? Is there going to be a use case focus, so like figuring out all that stuff, marketing can't dictate that, it's got to be sales and marketing together.
[26:34] Steve Watt And then once you're together on that, it's like okay, great. Now what accounts are we going to focus on or what clusters of accounts? Again, if sales gets the impression that marketing is just saying, hey here, yeah, we've we've done the work don't you worry about it. Yeah, here's the target accounts. Sales is gonna just completely ignore you. I mean, they, salespeople, get paid to close deals. Anything that helps close deals, they love. Anything that gets in the way. They either ignore, or they overtly push back against them and make sure it doesn't happen.
[27:11] Steve Watt So you gotta have sales involved, not just in those top level objectives, but in the nitty gritty too. What accounts are we going after? And in what order and why? And then those metrics, like I said, like, you know, maybe it's not about a whole bunch of demos, maybe it's about getting meetings with particular high level people. Or maybe it's about getting executives out to some, you know, special executive breakfast series that you're doing. Or some particular focused webinars, you're doing, like focus on what really will move the needle, then that's what everything is going to be focused on.
[27:48] Steve Watt And that has to be sales and marketing together. And then the messaging. I mean, like, marketing just can't go like tada, here's a bunch of ads and a bunch of content and here's a you know, special landing pages for your accounts, you know, have fun with that, you know, it's not going to be right. You know, sales has a critical role. Sales knows their customers really well, I think of all of this stuff. It's like one plus one equals three, right?
[28:15] Steve Watt You take all the wisdom of sales and all the wisdom of marketing. And when they come together, they create something that's much greater than the sum of their parts. But that has to start with this really understanding that you are partners and teammates throughout this entire thing. And so now you know where you're focusing and you know how you're going to measure success and you've got, gained clarity on your messages, and what assets will help.
[28:43] Steve Watt You know, sometimes marketers think, well, I just have a bunch of case studies, that's all those guys need. And you talk to the sales guys and they say, I don't need case studies, nobody reads case studies. I want this other thing. So you got to come together on that. And then you got to come together on delivery. You know, salespeople are going to be critical deliverers of some of this message. Like, sure you're going to hit them with ads and you know, targeted social and, you know, maybe you're going to be sending them gifts and physical mail or whatever.
[29:09] Steve Watt But salespeople, you know, on their phone when they dial in. Are they on tune? Are you guys singing from different song books here? You know, maybe the sales guys are, you know, maybe they have to adapt their decks and maybe they have to adapt their emails and all kinds of things so that you're all together on the message and on the purpose.
[29:30] Steve Watt And then there's going to be this whole feedback loop that no sales is going to be coming back and saying like, yeah, you know, when I talk about this, everybody, you know, tunes me out. But when I talk about this, they get very excited. Well, that's got to feed back into the websites, and the assets, and the marketing messages, and the ad creative, and everything. So it's truly at every stage of the way. It's sales and marketing together. And that's why it all starts with that alignment.
[29:58] Shahin Hoda Gotcha. No, that's, I love that. There is a lot going on in the Account Based Marketing space, as we talked about. And it's a very, very exciting space. I think today, just today was a massive announcement of a probably the biggest merger or kind of acquisition in the space, Demandbase and Engagio. So it's an absolute pleasure talking about ABM with you, and really getting an insight into all this experience that you've had. Now, if some of the listeners want to know more about yourself or the company, what is the best way for them to find out?
[30:43] Steve Watt LinkedIn is my platform of choice for sure. Check me out on LinkedIn. I do quite a bit of writing on LinkedIn. I love it. I would say writers write and I love to write. I have just I'm always in a lot of it's about Maybe but a lot of it's not it's always about something to do with marketing or sales or something to do with business but as a pretty strong ABM flavor. Sometimes I do the long form posts on LinkedIn that nobody ever sees. Sometimes they do the short form posts, they get all kinds of traction and engagement.
[31:16] Steve Watt But you know what, it's really hard to write anything meaningful in 1300 characters. So I'm always experimenting, I'm always doing stuff. So LinkedIn, podcasting, I do the VP Marketing Show. I haven't been really active on that recently. I gotta get back to that because that's been a wonderful way to get to know some really smart people and learn from them.
[31:38] Steve Watt I'm a regular guest host on FlipMyFunnel, which is probably the leading ABM podcast, so Sangram Vajre, many people know him. Co-founder and Chief Evangelist at Terminus, one of the leading ABM tech companies. Sangram started this podcast, it's now over 600 episodes. Amazing, and it's gone beyond ABM now it gets into pretty much all kinds of B2B things. But I've known Sangram for a long time, and we got talking about the fact that, you know, there wasn't much content on that podcast about larger companies doing ABM there was a real startup flavor to it, which is awesome. I love that stuff.
[32:20] Steve Watt But I got some reasonable experience in larger companies doing ABM so Sangram asked me to do a regular series of guest hosted episodes, talking about large scale ABM and in global enterprises, and I've done nine or 10 episodes there now so FlipMyFunnel that's great, not just my episodes, but lots of great episodes there. And so, yeah, anytime I can talk to someone and learn something and talk about all this stuff that there's so much fun. I'm always happy to do it. So check me out on LinkedIn, read something I wrote. Listen to something I recorded. If you think it's good, share it, if you think it's bad, yeah, tell me let's talk about it.
[33:05] Shahin Hoda I personally very much enjoy your posts on LinkedIn. And I follow you closely. And it's an absolute pleasure for me to have you on the show. And thank you very much for joining us.
[33:16]Steve Watt Thanks, Shahin. There's a lot of fun, time flies when you're having fun.
[33:20] Shahin Hoda That's very true. Thanks a lot Steve. See you later!
[34:05] Steve Watt Thanks Shahin, bye.