Podcast: How to Run Account-Based Marketing Across APAC

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Episode topic: How to run Account-Based Marketing across the APAC

In this episode, host Shahin Hoda chats with Lubaina Rangwala, Global Account-Based Marketing Lead at Thoughtworks, about how organisations can successfully run account-based marketing across the APAC region.

During the conversation, Lubaina mentions the factors that govern the kind of ABM strategy to use per country. She emphasises the importance of thought leadership and partnering-for-content as a key strategy to engage with top-of-the-funnel accounts. 

She concludes the discussion by sharing some learnings from her past ABM campaigns at Thoughtworks and future initiatives in the pipeline. 

This episode’s guest: 

Resources mentioned on this episode:

• About Thoughtworks
• About xGrowth
• Atomic Habits - Book recommended by Lubaina
• Gemma Davies - Influencer followed by Lubaina
• Navin Rammohan - Influencer followed by Lubaina

About the Growth Colony Podcast

On this podcast, you'll be hearing from B2B founders, CMOs, marketing & sales leaders about their successes, failures, what is working for them today in the B2B marketing world and everything in between.

Produced by Shahin Hoda & Alexander Hipwell, from xGrowth

Get in touch!

We would love to get your questions, ideas and feedback about Growth Colony, email podcast@xgrowth.com.au

Episode Full Transcript:

[00:14] Shahin Hoda  Hello everyone, welcome to another episode. I'm Shahin Hoda with xGrowth and today I'm talking to Lubaina Rangwala, the Global ABM Lead at ThoughtWorks, about her approach to ABM across multiple different geographical locations in the APAC region. This is super exciting, considering the vast differences between APAC cultures and nations, and how these factors impact marketing and ABM campaigns. On that note, let's dive in. Lubaina, thanks for joining us.

[01:03] Lubaina Rangwala  Shahin. I'm happy to be here. How are you?

[01:05] Shahin Hoda  I'm good. I'm good. I'm super excited for this. I mean, APAC is a big thing. And, you know, I'm really, really excited to talk about this. Because we've had challenges in the past when we run campaigns with our clients, and the differences across the geographies is something to take into consideration. And really hard to scale in some situations, right? If it's like a central team for APAC, and it's sometimes funny that Japan, and we were just making a joke out of it, Japan, Pakistan, and New Zealand all fall under the same umbrella, right?

[01:47] Lubaina Rangwala  Yep.

[01:48] Shahin Hoda  So I'd love to explore and talk about what are some of the geographical teams that you work with for ABM?

[01:58] Lubaina Rangwala  You know, before I talk about the team, I just want to talk about a little bit about the way I work with them. And we have a, you know, ABM Centre of Excellence model. So I belong to the Global Centre of Excellence team. And I work with regions, both APAC and globally. And so the APAC region itself are headed by wonderful, you know, marketers and very talented people there.

[02:25] Lubaina Rangwala  And I wanted to mention this, because I know that sometimes when I'm introduced, as somebody who's leading something, you know, people forget that there's actually like, teams sort of running it, I just wanted to call that out. Within the APAC region, I work with China, India, Australia, and Southeast Asia, where Singapore is, you know, the main market there, and also Thailand and Indonesia. So that's the back spread. No, Japan or New Zealand there yet. But you know, who knows, fingers-crossed?

[02:57] Shahin Hoda  Fingers-crossed. Okay. All right, let's talk about differences across the, you know, the different teams, you know, as in how are the teams approaches different in different parts of APAC to ABM?

[03:11] Lubaina Rangwala  Ah, that's a really good question, actually. And I think, you know, the way the team approaches ABM, it varies based on like, there are many things that, you know, have an impact on that. It could be the region, the demand that we have from the region itself, so you know, how the markets are, economically how strong they are. It could also be the ABM capabilities of the team. So, you know, depending on the individual capabilities of the marketers within the team. But and it could also be like, the relationships that the regional marketing team has, with the sales executives within the team. And all of that has a lot of, you know, a cultural dependencies as well. And economic ones as well.

[03:56] Lubaina Rangwala  So with all of the regions that I've mentioned, it's very different. But, you know, if I were to like, I think I can, I can sort of say that, with what we're seeing in the market, you know, India and China, at least, when we try to engage with the executives in those markets, right? They rely a lot on face to face conversations over digital and over online stuff. So we still continue to, you know, have those tactics within those markets. Like we, we may have webinars, because with the pandemic, it was impossible to do anything else otherwise.

[04:32] Lubaina Rangwala  But what happens is, at least within India and China, the power centers are very, you know, centralised, very concentrated. So, there's, there's a lot of decision-making power with just a few people. And so the amount of, there's a lot of competition for the mindshare, for those, you know, select people and so if you're looking at, you know, industries that people generally targets if you have you know, financial services or healthcare or those kinds of industries, right? You're talking to like a very, very few set of people. And so everybody's talking to them.

[05:04] Lubaina Rangwala  And so you've got to really demonstrate value from the start. Because, again, both India and China, the regions are very, very, you know, value-centric, more than brand-centric, like, they want to see what you can do for them, even though you know, you're a great brand, you've got a great reputation, that's fine. But what is it that you can show me now? Like, can you show me the value of actually what you will do for me. So that's what you know, we've kind of observed in those regions. And so the approach of the marketing team there has been to, you know, influence our way up the value chain. So while it is important to talk to the power centers, there's a lot of, you know, influence and word of mouth that they also depend on.

[05:47] Lubaina Rangwala  So we really have to get to, you know, the second and the third levels of influence of those decision-makers as well. So we, so if you were, even if we were to look at the funnel approach, we look at, you know, influencing more and more people digitally, but at the bottom of the funnel, when we're looking at like more, you know, I guess, like conversion related actions has to be face-to-face, and it has to be physical. So that's the approach with those two markets. And I'm just being very broad over here. It's so you know, I think each of them is so complex, and sometimes even the industries within them have so many complexities, that it's sort of, it's extremely interesting, but you know, we could we could spend like, well, more than an hour to talk about it.

[06:32] Shahin Hoda  What is the kind of differences that you see, you know, if that is very and India and China are very focused on some core decision-makers, what are some of the differences that you see in that situation, compared to, you know, Southeast Asia, Singapore, and Australia,

[06:48] Lubaina Rangwala  So within Singapore, and Australia, and in contrast to India, and China, you know, India and China, we have this, this, it's very volumous. and so the scale is really large. With Australia and Singapore, the market is actually quite saturated, like compared to the other two as well. So at least what we found is, when you work with, you know, a few set of people, word of mouth spreads really, really fast. Because everybody sort of, you know, knows everybody within the region. And so you, you can get a reputation really, really quickly, if you do good work. Like you get a very good reputation.

[07:27] Lubaina Rangwala  And so, that is usually, you know, a really good thing, because then people automatically, like when they think of, you know, Thoughtworks, they think, are, you know, we worked, but you know, somebody from here has worked with them. And so yes, we rely on them, and all of that. So that kind of works really well in our favor. But we've seen that works really well within Singapore, and Australia. And so the approach here, and one of the things that they also respond to, is, you know, Singapore specially like, they, they want to see how this is being done in like, you know, though, how is it being done elsewhere?

[08:03] Lubaina Rangwala  Like they want to know, you know, if we're doing digital transformation, or if we're doing something like, how is it being done elsewhere. So the approach that we've found that works really well is to use thought leadership as a way to connect with that audience. And to show them that, you know, you're an industry leader in this space, this is what the industry is looking at, this is what the trends are looking at, this is what is happening. And so that's something they respond to really well, and they, you know, kind of cements the reputation a little bit more there.

[08:34] Lubaina Rangwala  And, yeah, we also see that, you know, they're, like, the audience from Singapore and Australia, they are more comfortable engaging online, like we've had no issues or, you know, any hesitancy or anything, like they're more comfortable engaging online. We've had, you know, conversations with them completely, you know, completely remotely like, it's, it's been absolutely fine. Not physically meet or anything. But I think culturally, that's probably like a difference between these countries that are between these regions. And that's what we've observed. So the teams have, you know, kind of used similar approaches to sort of engage with those audiences.

[09:12] Shahin Hoda  Got it. Got it. Yes, very interesting. And, you know, it's interesting that you talk about Singapore, you know, wanting to see best practices, and probably, you know, people in Singapore want to see it from other places in the world, right? So,

[09:25] Lubaina Rangwala  Yes

[09:25] Shahin Hoda  What's going on in Australia? What's going on in Europe? What's going on in North America? And then that cascades down? And one of the things that we found is countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, they look up to Singapore.

[09:40] Lubaina Rangwala  Yeah.

[09:42] Shahin Hoda  Like what's happening in Singapore, and is that, have you noticed that as well?

[09:46] Lubaina Rangwala  I mean, I don't know if they're looking up at what's happening in Singapore. But I would imagine that for Singapore, the benchmark is, you know, what is happening in North America, what's happening in Australia? And for Indonesia and Thailand, it's more like they want to know what, what will work for them. You know, so they're more open to looking at what's happening in Singapore, because they know that if it works there, it will probably work for us. So it's yeah, that's what we've observed.

[10:14] Shahin Hoda  Very interesting. We've talked about a little bit about the tactics that you and the team have used. Is there anything else that comes to mind from tactics that you've seen? You've talked about the online versus offline component, but is there anything else that comes to mind that was was very clear, or the differences that you saw across these geographies?

[10:37] Lubaina Rangwala  You know, I think one of the things that, one of the things that we found that actually works, I would say, this is something that I found, like actually as a commonality between all all the regions, is whether it's, you know, a physical meetup, or whether it's virtual, like, depending on you know, the cultural nature of that region, they respond really well, to a brand name. Which means that if you have a thought leader, like a very well known name, with you're delivering that content, either virtually or in person, that's the thing that kind of draws people to the meet up. So if you have the same content that's going to be delivered by, you know, someone who's probably not as well known, it will not draw that many people there.

[11:24] Lubaina Rangwala  So, you know, I know, we say content is king, and I know, you know, that's the most important part. But because, especially because of the pandemic, people don't have, they don't want to spend a lot of time on Zoom. So they really, really want to be able to see that they will get, you know, their times worth. And so we found that, you know, whether, whichever way you're trying to approach them, if you have a really well known thought leader behind that, that actually really draws people to read it. And it's not surprising, I think anymore.

[11:54] Lubaina Rangwala  But yeah, that's what I found, as I sort of common between the regions tactically, and I think that's what we've started using more of. The other thing that we found as a tactic that works is, I think, one of the things that, you know, at least in, when we kind of get to the bottom of the funnel, people are more open to partnering to actually create content. And that actually is, we found that people are more open to that, then, you know, come and attend an event with us.

[12:27] Lubaina Rangwala  So like, if I, if I say, Hey, you know, just come in, you know, like, like, attend this webinar, or attend this thing. They're like, okay, you know, I may, but mostly, I'll pass it on to my team. But if I offer, like, you know, we want to, we want to create this blog with you. And we would like a couple of quotes from you, I think that people are at the exact level are more open to that. And I think it's the IKEA effect, you know, the fact that you will help people, like when they create something, it becomes more dear to them. So I see that, that actually sort of has worked really well for us.

[12:59] Shahin Hoda  I love that. Can you, I mean, you talked about the blog thing, can you give a little bit more, you know, any particular examples that come to mind with regards to this kind of collaboration?

[13:08] Lubaina Rangwala  Sure. So I, I won't take like names as such, but you know, Thoughtworks, we have a, we have a blog that we publish, which is called insights. And it's open to people from within Thoughtworks, to actually, you know, write about, and it's a thought leadership gallery, as well of people who work with us. So it's also an opportunity for anybody who works, you know, in thoughtworks, to kind of have an opinion and, and share that with the world outside.

[13:35] Lubaina Rangwala  Sometimes what we do is, while we're writing this, because we work so closely with our customers, it's also an opportunity for them to have their name published, right? In an online publication. So we, we went in the past, especially when we've had a very, very good working relationship with, you know, with a client, we reached out to them, and we asked them, would you be open to, you know, writing this with us, and what usually happens is, there's immediately the concern is of time, right?

[14:07] Lubaina Rangwala  But then, you know, we say that's okay, we'll, we'll interview you, we'll get the we get the notes out, and we want your review, you know, you want to think and then, you know, and then we'll publish it. So what is in it for them is the brand name like, Hey, I have my name out there. That's, that's very interesting. They also see the marketing team as somebody who cares about their personal brand and their growth and also, you know, the company's brand as well. So that has worked really well. And we've done it in the past with like, a few people. And it has worked really well for us.

[14:44] Shahin Hoda  Interesting. And you know, has this been something that you've done specifically with existing customers or have you included people outside of the the existing customers of Thoughtworks like reaching out cold to people?

[15:00] Lubaina Rangwala  No, we've we've done this only with existing customers. Yeah.

[15:03] Shahin Hoda  Got it. Okay. Sounds good. Now, I also want to explore, you've been on this journey of creating the center of excellence within Thoughtworks for a while now, and I think this is another level of maturity for organisations, right? So organisations, usually, if they're multinational, one arm of the organisation, if it's EMEA or APAC, or you know, somebody runs a pilot project, then another pilot project pops up in North America, maybe in another one in EMEA, and then slowly, slowly one shares ideas with another one, and then eventually grows to a point that, hey, we need a centre of excellence. And we need to build this out, and and create a more central source of truth for our ABM efforts. What are some of the mistakes that you've come across while building that at Thoughtworks?

[15:58] Lubaina Rangwala  I feel like, you know, I could share so many.

[16:03] Shahin Hoda  Let's see the top, you know, top three.

[16:07] Lubaina Rangwala  Yeah, but you know, I actually don't call them mistakes. Because we've learned from, from everything, you know. And I think one of the things that, and I take accountability for that. So I won't say we, I'd say I. But one of the things that I've learned is the way, you know, the way and because I've spoken about ROI before, the way we measure our ABM tactics and activities, I think that's been a big, big learning from a centre of excellence perspective, because when, you know, it's, it's really attractive to look at, hey, we've had like, 150, webinar attendees for this, you know, for this particular webinar that we did, and we spent on it so much.

[16:51] Lubaina Rangwala  And especially when you look at it across regions, without context, it can seem that, you know, some are doing much, much more than the others. So you may have a region like China and India, where, you know, for the same amount of dollars spent, you have way more attendees than a region like Singapore, and Australia. Instead of looking at it like that and, you know, of course, there's a name for it, that's vanity metrics. So we were looking at, what's a good way to kind of qualify this so that it's relevant. But it can also be standardised. And that's really challenging, because we're looking at, you know, completely different regions.

[17:28] Lubaina Rangwala  So instead, so we've tried, and we're still trying to have extremely relevant metrics. So in that case, you know, we would look at, who are the decision-makers that have, you know, attended, or, or been touched by that event. And so it is very important to qualify that out and look at the seniority of the people and the buying power. And, you know, especially in the B2B space, right, because it's great that you've had, you know, 500 people attending, but out of that, who are the people I can really influence, you know, and which one of them will actually be relevant to my pipeline?

[18:02] Lubaina Rangwala  Because with an organisation at a B2B level, you're also influencing not just on buying power, but also influencing on on the recruitment and supply side, right. So you're, you're kind of you're doing both sometimes. So, especially from a customer marketing perspective, it's really important to kind of qualify the decision-makers out. And so that's something that, you know, that we've learned to do. And once in a while, we used to look at the vanity metrics and feel happy, because that's what they're there for. But I think at an ROI level, it's really important to kind of qualify, so that's definitely a learning that we've had.

[18:38] Shahin Hoda  Yeah, yeah, they're the webinar attendees are like the Instagram likes, right? They want to get more regardless of his vanity or not, you want more of them, but you also know that it doesn't necessarily mean much. Anything else that comes to mind?

[18:54] Lubaina Rangwala  There is one thing that comes to mind. And I know you talked about it briefly in the beginning. So as a Global Centre of Excellence, right, like it's, I think one thing that we we cautiously do not do is create something and then expect everybody to do it the same way. So like, we don't have a one size fit all ABM campaign or anything. It cannot be a one size fits all because because especially in this context, the APAC regions are so different from each other, that it's not just the campaign design, but even the timing that has an impact, right?

[19:30] Lubaina Rangwala  Because at which time you know, obviously China has Chinese New Year which is a very important time in theirs you know, calendar. and then Australia has the Christmas holidays and everything and so that's really important than their calendar and similarly for Singapore and then similarly for India, which has the value.So, like for these are, this is a very obvious thing, I'm talking about the holidays, but apart from there, even like at an account level of the accounts that are important for those regions, timing is really important for them.

[20:00] Lubaina Rangwala  So when we create something at a global level and say this is, you know, for the, for the regions to execute, I think we've learned to rely and trust the regional teams to execute it at a level that they, you know, that they think is right for the region. And so there's a level of customisation that, you know, that is expected, because ABM is all about customization. But I think that regional context, we can't create something and say, Hey, this is, you know, this is for everybody. And everybody across APAC has to do this. That's just not going to work. So it has to be, you know, it has to be done at a level that is appropriate for the region, and that's appropriate for the accounts within the region.

[20:39] Shahin Hoda  Got it? Yeah. Makes sense. Because, yeah, I mean, the holidays is one thing. Financial years is another thing. They're different times of the year that ends for different countries, and even different companies. So I absolutely see what you mean by that. Now, the last question that I want to ask is, what are some of the initiatives that you're looking to implement in the near future in these regions now? Or what's on the table?

[21:08] Lubaina Rangwala  What's on the table? So, I love this question because it's always, you know, it's something that makes me think about what's to look forward to. And that's already always very exciting. It's always very exciting. And one of the things that, you know, I, that I'm excited about, to, to have within the regions is we, so far we've got, you know, a robust one-to-one ABM program. And I'm looking to we're looking to scale that and then have some, you know, interesting industry ABM programs. So that's something we're looking forward to.

[21:42] Lubaina Rangwala  The other thing is, you know, ABM is actually, it's so vast right, and it's a very broad, vast field, and there's so much to learn from, and there's so much there's so much strategy behind it. And it's not just what tactics do we execute for this account, but also, you know, helping marketers to work with sales towards like, common goals. And then you know, traditionally what happens is obviously, you know, sales and demand come up with the goals and say, okay, marketing, we need a newsletter, we need this, we need that, right?

[22:17] Lubaina Rangwala  But ABM is is not about is not about that. ABM is about these are our goals, marketing tell us how, how can you help us support these goals, right? Like, can you have a way for us, or let's work on a way together. So it's about creating that relationship, one of the things that I'm looking forward to is piloting some very deep strategic ABM workshops for some of our accounts, because I think that addresses what we want to do at two levels.

[22:45] Lubaina Rangwala  One is at a capability level, like get marketers to understand that, or at least get familiar with this is the way that ABM can be done, like we can, we can do these deep strategic sessions. And other thing is to actually, you know, help fields in demand see that as well. Because it's not just a marketing responsibility, it is a, you know, it is a partnership. So to help them also see that this is possible, and you know, so many things can be possible with good ABM. So let's work towards that. So that's something I'm looking forward to as well.

[23:23] Shahin Hoda  I love that, you know, I think having an initiative, an actual line item in, you know, we kind of implement this for every single client that we work with, because we kind of been burned by not not implementing it. And that's how do you didn't get sales excited, right? Well, you need to show them and you, you know, you said perfectly showing them what's possible. And when you show them what's possible, you see this sparkle in their eyes, and they're like, you could do that, from my account, the account I'm responsible for? And and making them see the potential commission from the sales that , right?

[24:06] Shahin Hoda  That's just such a, it's hard because I think just like you said, marketers really need to understand the world of sales, to to understand what they care about. And sometimes they you know, they care about some very selfish things. And you know, usually what a selfish for sales is good for the business to some degree. Well, it would- with a degree of variability, but to some degree. You know, there there are motivated by commission that is translated from the sales and understanding that and then being able to excite the sales team is it a big part of ABM success. I love that you you bring that up and that sounds super, super cool.

[24:51] Shahin Hoda  Now, before we wrap up, you know, I have a couple of rapid fire questions that I want to ask you but is there anything that you think with regards to APAC, the differences, the tactics, and mistakes? The things to keep an eye out for? Is there anything that you think I maybe didn't ask that is, worth us exploring before we wrap up this topic?

[25:15] Lubaina Rangwala  I think, no, I think we're good. I think I've shared everything that I need to do. Yeah.

[25:20] Shahin Hoda  Okay. All right. Sounds good. So let's, let's, let's jump into the rapid fire questions. Okay. So the first thing I want to ask is, what is one resource, could be book, podcast, blog, whatever it is that, you know, you've consumed, and it's fundamentally changed the way you you work or you live.

[25:36] Lubaina Rangwala  So it that's a tough one. Because so many things, they change even little, little ways. And obviously, it's a big world.

[25:45] Shahin Hoda  But if you want, you know I asked that question, what's the first thing that comes to your mind Lubaina? You gotta get, you gotta go there. Yeah,

[25:53] Lubaina Rangwala  The first thing, yeah, the first thing that came to my mind was, it's the book Atomic Habits by James Clear,

[26:00] Shahin Hoda  I just finished that. That was so good.

[26:03] Lubaina Rangwala  It is so good, isn't it? And I always hesitate to say it, because I don't think it has changed the way I live. But it's definitely changed the way I think.

[26:12] Shahin Hoda  No, I love that. I love that. Yeah, I was not, I was I was a bit hesitant of picking it up. Because, you know, everybody was talking about it. And I was like, you know, is this like another like, popular psychology thing. And then I was on another podcast, and I was talking to one of our guests. And he recommended the book. And I was like, you know, what, if this guy recommends a book, I gotta check it out. And I checked it out. And it was good. It was a great,

[26:42] Lubaina Rangwala  It's good. It's good.

[26:43] Shahin Hoda  Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go question on two. If you could give only one advice, one piece of advice to B2B marketers, what would it be?

[26:52] Lubaina Rangwala  If it was one advice to B2B marketers, so you know, I have got this advice. And I feel like I need to action it. So that's why I'm going to give this to like the other B2B marketers as well. It's about you know, when when we say marketers need to be data driven, and we need to be, you know, we need to look at data. Or one of the things that I wish I could have done sooner in my life is to not take no or rejection so personally, at a campaign level, because you know, when something doesn't work as a marketer, because you've designed and you've created it, so you feel bad, right?

[27:28] Lubaina Rangwala  And that's why we kind of rely on my vanity metrics, and just something to make it sort of seem like a success, because you're like, I worked really hard on this, you know, here you go. This is how it looks now. So I think it's about that. And actually something that sales folks do really well is not take no, so personally, and you know, and they sort of, they kind of leave it aside, and then they try again, and we try again. And I think that's the persistent, that's the level of persistence we need for marketing as well. Like, okay, this didn't work. Okay, let's decide. Let's try again, and let's try again.

[28:02] Shahin Hoda  All right, love it. Question number three, what are some of the who are some of the influencers that you follow in the, in the B2B in the ABM space?

[28:09] Lubaina Rangwala  There are so so many actually. There are so many, so

[28:13] Shahin Hoda  Top three that comes to mind. Gotta go quick.

[28:16] Lubaina Rangwala  Top three. Alright. So there is, I think, from marketing perspective, the person that I, whose work I relied on to actually introduce myself to digital marketing was Rand Fishkin of Moz. And I feel like, you know, it's an exercise in content marketing, actually, the kind of work that he's done. It's amazing. And so I really relied on that to get my start. From an ABM perspective, you know, Gemma Davies, the ServiceNow. I really loved the kind of conversations she has for Centre of Excellence.

[28:48] Lubaina Rangwala  And because that's something that I'm doing currently, I really rely on a lot of thought leadership that she provides. So that's definitely my number two. And from the perspective of, you know, I'm based in India, so I'm actually always looking to connect with ABMers within India and sort of, you know, follow the ABM journey over here. One of the ABM journeys that really impressed me was what Infosys actually is doing. And so there's Navin Rammohan who's the VP of Marketing at Infosys. And so I, you know, I listened to a couple of things that they were doing so that he's another influencer that I follow in this moment.

[29:24] Shahin Hoda  I love it. Last question is what something that excites you about B2B today?

[29:29] Lubaina Rangwala  This is such an exciting question, actually. So there's obviously, you know, it's an exciting space when you think about it really broadly, even though even though sometimes, like the day to day stuff may seem like frustrating. But I think one of the things that really really excites me is where we have so many tools that actually that are available to us today. And you know, the broadest search in Google has to be marketing tools, right? Like you could just go on and on. There's just so many things that are available to us. And all of that helps us kind of scale marketing for us. So earlier when it was a challenge to reach out to 1000 people, now it's nothing, it's so easy for us to reach out to the 1000 people.

[30:12] Lubaina Rangwala  And so, we also, because of these tools, we also get so much insight on, you know, who our audiences and how do we segment them? And what do they like? And, you know, what could we pitch to them? Or what could we, you know, we sell to them, all of that. You get so many things, and so many insights, and so much analytics, and all of that is available, and yet, what we're doing is something so primitive, because what we're actually trying to do is connect with another human being, right?

[30:42] Lubaina Rangwala  So I think that is really exciting to me, because we have the capacity and the ability to do this at such a huge scale that that wasn't possible before. To actually have these connections with another human being and to kind of, you know, get that to to actually create that relationship. And I think what's really exciting for me is that I don't forget that, you know, like, we don't forget that. That we are actually talking to a human being at the end of this and we're actually selling to another person and even though it's B2B or B2C or whatever. Like you have a human being at the end of that. And so to remember that no, that's, that's who you're talking to. So that's exciting for me.

[31:19] Shahin Hoda  I love it. I love it. Lubaina, this has been an awesome conversation. I really enjoyed our chat, I think there was there was a lot of insights that you dropped there and you know, I think it's a very interesting conversation for a lot of people considering ABM is so new in the APAC region and, and a lot of people will have a lot of questions that they're trying to answer. So I really appreciate you jumping on the podcast and having this conversation with me.

[31:44] Lubaina Rangwala  Thanks Shahin. It was absolutely my pleasure. There is nothing I like better than having a conversation about ABM with a colleague. I love that. Thank you.

[31:53] Shahin Hoda  I love it. Thank you so much.